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45lc to powerful?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by Revolver Ocelot, Dec 25, 2006.

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  1. Revolver Ocelot

    Revolver Ocelot Member

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    I was considering buying a 4410 and loading it with 410 shells with a bit of rock salt but I don't see any point in owning one if you don't give the 45s a try sooner or later, I'm relatively new to revolvers and I was wondering if this might be a bit to much for me to handle.
     
  2. dtalley

    dtalley Member

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    Why do you think it might be to powerfull? if you reload you can tame them down to 38spcl or less. I don't think mine is any harder to handle than my 1911. 2 cents deposited.
     
  3. Revolver Ocelot

    Revolver Ocelot Member

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    never fired any 45 just 9mm and 357s, I just hear they are a little harder to handle. I'm new to this and wouldn't want to get over my head
     
  4. Bob R

    Bob R Member

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    I have a S&W model 25-5, (45Colt) that is a dream to shoot. Not real snappy, more of a pushing recoil. Mine is magna ported though.

    It is my wife's favorite gun to shoot, if that gives you any idea of what a pussycat this round can be.

    [​IMG]

    bob
     
  5. wildburp

    wildburp member

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    Grammer Geek

    Sorry, but you boys are making my teeth squeek. We can go from here TO there, but get there TOO soon if we hurry. The latter means too much, as in an excess of; the former means go to Jail Without Passing Go, or bring that bottle of over here TO me.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year TO all, I just can't say this TOO many times :)

    wb
     
  6. Monkeybear

    Monkeybear Member

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    Ehh, I dont think its to much. My friend thought my .357 was to much but for me it was real nice to shoot, not anywhere near to much. I guess its all subjective.
     
  7. Antihero

    Antihero Member

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    If its standard loads there isnt much in the way of recoil, but if you get into the so called +p's they're is a quite a bit. I wouldnt fire the +ps in your Taurus though.

    BTW Metal Gear Solid rocks:D
     
  8. MikeWSC

    MikeWSC Member

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    Revolver Ocelot,

    The .45 LC should'nt be a problem. You can shoot "cowboy" loads in it and still
    have the option of running a hotter load if you'd like to hunt with it.
    If you reload or know someone who does you can load it with a "shot capsule"
    and it make a close range snake shooter.

    By the by, when my son was 16 he tried out my S&W 500 Mag. loaded with a 350g.
    Hornady XTP/Mag sittin' on 39.6g of H110. He had a smile from ear to ear :D .

    Best..........Mike
     
  9. dracphelan

    dracphelan Member

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    I just reveived a Blackhawk in 45 Colt/45 ACP. Shooting Winchester Cowboy loads in it were a breeze. They kicked less than the 230 grain hollow point 45 ACP rounds I was shooting.
     
  10. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Always an English teacher in the crowd. :rolleyes: :D :D :D :D BTW, I believe "squeek is actually spelled "squeak". ;)

    The cowboy loads are mild. Shoot those for economy, too, if you don't reload. I'd not shoot anything that's +P or anything close to hot out of the Taurus. The +P stuff in .45 is rip roarin' hot and designed for guns like a Ruger Blackhawk or a TC Contender, STRONG guns IOW. They're not even recommended for the SAA, much less a smaller gun.

    There are appropriate, effective .45 Colt self defense rounds available, too, but anything with a bullet that big is going to work pretty well at mild velocities. My mild reload I shoot in my Ruger is a 255 grain flat point at onl 900 fps, but due to bullet weight, energies are over 400 ft lbs. :what: And, at least you won't have to worry much about penetration. 255 grains of lead with a flat point at 800 fps is going to work pretty well. Don't have to worry much about bullet construction.:D I see that as a big advantage in the caliber. You really don't have to shoot a rip roarin' fast load for it to work on human attackers. The +P stuff is more appropriate for hunting and bear defense afield and such.
     
  11. McCall911

    McCall911 Member

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    Poncelet's formula gives the .45 Long Colt (255 grain bullet at 820 fps) a penetration depth of 8.8 inches in soft tissue. Compared to the .38 Special FBI load, it has a bit less penetration. 158 grain .357 inch bullet at 880 fps: 9.2 inches. To get the same amount of penetration from the .45 Colt, you would have to bump up the velocity to 880 fps. No surprises here because Poncelet's formula hinges on sectional density, which is practically the same for the 158 grain .38/.357 bullet and the 255 grain .45 Colt.
    So, no. IMO there's no reason to think that the .45 Colt is overly powerful in its standard factory loadings. However, the .45 Colt will probably have a bit of "kick" to it if you're not used to it.
     
  12. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    This formula sounds suspicious. Me thinks there's more to penetration than SD, though I know SD is important.:scrutiny: I'm no expert on the subject, though, so I'm probably wrong, but I'd think momentum would be a factor and a 255 grain bullet at over 800 fps has one heck of a lot of ol' mo. :D I know it can clear a pin off a table post haste. :D Whether it has anything to do with penetration, I confess I really don't know, just seems like it would.
     
  13. mainmech48

    mainmech48 Member

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    In the 'standard' factory load with lead bullets the .45 Colt isn't anything the average handgunner can't learn to handle. Most published data for that lists a 250-255 gr. bullet at a velocity of 860 f/s, but this is a bit misleading, IMO, as the figures are usually generated from an unvented pressure fixture with a barrel length exceeding that of most conventional revolvers.

    As has been pointed out, the factory 'Cowboy' loads are generally even milder. Some say this is in deference to the genuine antiques out there in that game, and some that it's a concession to the large element of that market more concerned with the 'authenticity' of their costumes than of their skills.

    There are also several manufacturers with .45 S&W 'Schofield' loads that're even milder, and will function perfectly well in almost any .45 Colt revolver. It won't be tough to find a load level you can be comfortable with, even if you don't roll your own.

    If you really want to trash a perfectly nice firearm, revolver or what-have-you, in short order I can't think of a better or faster way than to shoot rock salt through it. If you want 'less-than-lethal' defense or pest control, there are better options. In most jurisdictions you'd face the same liabilities and consequences, should you actually use them on either a stray animal or intruder, with those rock salt loads as you would had it been pellets or slugs.

    Somebody's anecdotal grandpaw might've gotten by with it back in 1907, but I wouldn't bet your future on it in 2007 IIWY.
     
  14. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    The reason the 45LC shell is so big is that the design pre-dates the modern smokeless powder era. Other such holdovers are the 45-70 and the last pre-smokeless cartridge designed, the 38Spl.

    Smokeless powders are on average six times more potent than "black powder" (the mixture of charcoal, potassium nitrate and sulpher the Chinese brewed up 1,000+ years ago). The transition from black powder to smokeless occured over a period of about 15 years starting around 1888 if I recall right. Might have been '86. Whatever. It affected rifles first, handguns last, shotguns I have no clue.

    This is why the shorter 9mm round designed in 1907(?) is more powerful than the 38Spl designed in 1895. It's also why the 45LC is NOT more powerful than the 44Mag even though it looks bigger...unless of course we're talking about some of the specialty 45LC+P monster loads brewed up for very strong 45LC guns...a few of which do exceed many 44Mags in overall performance.
     
  15. McCall911

    McCall911 Member

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    Oh, I'm no expert on this stuff either, MC. Just a student.
    The momentum formula that I have gives the penetration of the same .45 Long Colt load as 12.4 inches and the .38 158-grain at 13.2 ins. To get the same penetration as the 38 +P to satisfy this formula, the velocity of the .45 Colt would have to be upped to about 875 fps. The reason that the .45 round gets less penetration than the .38, according to the formula at least, is because of the larger surface area of the bigger bullet. Makes sense, but like many things that make sense, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's always right.
     
  16. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    mainmech48, I kinda figured those cowboy loads were weak because of the fast shooting in the action stuff, less recoil, quicker times. I'm sure the local boys ain't as good, but I saw some kid on outdoor channel shooting a national match and that kid (21 years old) was cock and releasing he hammer without using the trigger, thumb fanning you might say, and knockin' down plates way faster than I can do with a semi auto. :what: Wow, that kid's GOOD! Without having to reload, I bet he could go toe to toe with a lot of the top IPSC/IDPA action type shooters in the country. Sure impressed me anyway.

    Yeah, that makes sense. Maybe one of these days I'll spend some time researching this penetration thing. I know rifle types spend a lot of time cussing and discussing sectional density. I just ASSUMED (we all know what that means) that the big, heavy Colt bullet would beat up on a scrawny .38, but heck, sometimes the little guy wins. LOL!:D I wouldn't wanna be shot with either, myself.
     
  17. McCall911

    McCall911 Member

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    Nope, I ain't gonna volunteer for a real-world test either. :eek:

    Well, if it makes .45 Colt fans (and I'm one too) feel better, there's this from the physics book:

    That 255 grain .45 bullet at 820 fps has a kinetic energy of 381 foot pounds.
    So if it penetrates 8.8 ins, the retarding force would have to be the energy divided by the distance travelled. So 381 x 12 / 8.8 = 520 pounds.

    The 158 grain .38 +P bullet at 880 fps has a KE of 272 foot pounds. Penetrating 9.2 ins, the force would be 272 x 12/ 9.2 = 354 pounds.

    I don't have many conclusions to draw from this, or jump to because of this, just that the .45 Colt appears to have the potential of doing more internal damage than the .38 Special +P. Maybe someone who slept less in physics class than I did can tell us what that means, if anything.
     
  18. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    gonna season your game or you just want to pay for your attorney's Mercedes? (j/k)

    One of John Browning's tasks when designing the .45acp was to match the ballistics of the .45 Colt, which he did. So the felt recoil of each "should" be about the same from a 5" barrel. BUT, grip design being what it is, handgun mass, relationship of bore axis to support hand, etc will all have some play in actual felt recoil.

    Doesn't that 4410 thingie come with Taurus' ribber grips?

    And wouldn't the large (relatively speaking) distance from the .45 case mouth to forcing cone bleed off some energy?

    And why would anyone want to own one of those ungainly proportion challenged revolvers anyway? :D (Sorry, got carried away)

    Traditional Factory loads of the .45 should not be too (or to) powerful in
    such a homely gun (oops, sorry, I can't help myself today).

    Plus you might be able to load up some super duper paper patch rock salt round using the .45 Colt shell to fill the entire chamber... if ya wanted. :evil: (There I go again... sick humor today)
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2006
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Ditto on wondering about that rock salt comment. What are you planning?
     
  20. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Well, the tie breaker in my Ruger is a 300 grain bullet at 1150 fps. :D Game, set, match. But, of course, my .38 fits my pocket better. DOH!
     
  21. dracphelan

    dracphelan Member

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    You need bigger pockets. :evil:
     
  22. McCall911

    McCall911 Member

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    Hey, no fair cheating! :D

    Regardless of what values the formulas give it, this page suggests that such a load would penetrate about 38 inches, as long as it's a flat-point bullet with about a .32-inch meplat:

    http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

    I'm funny like that, but I tend to believe real-world results instead of formulas anyway.

    By the way, Poncelet's formula gives a mere 12.8 inches for your loading and momentum penetration gives 20.5 ins.
     
  23. Revolver Ocelot

    Revolver Ocelot Member

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    I've done a little looking around and I think I might just get a derringer for the defensive and nuy a black hawk for a new toy.
     
  24. Bob R

    Bob R Member

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    Sure won't be worrying about "too powerful" with that choice. :rolleyes:


    bob
     
  25. McCall911

    McCall911 Member

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    Oh, a derringer! I'm pretty sure you'll find that the .45 Colt derringer will have some noticeable recoil, to say the least. (I thought the .38 Special derringer I shot was rough!) And I've heard horror stories about shooting .410s out of these babies, too. But it's good snake medicine, so they say.
     
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