.460 Rowland on the "Men's Channel"

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Big Mike

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Did anyone see this?

Yesterday I was browsing DISH Network and landed on the "Men's Channel." I caught the last half of the show with a guy shooting a Kimber .45 with the .460 Rowland Conversion kit on it and comparing it to the .45ACP. The man (I believe was Mr. Rowland) was giggling after almost every shot of the .460 Rowland. He shot a gallon of water from around 12 feet with the .45 ACP and put a decent hole in it. Then from the same distance he shot another gallon of water with the .460 Rowland and it literally vaporized the entire gallon of water. The shooter said that it was @ .44 mag in power with @ 1000 FP of Energy at the muzzle. He shot various objects including a log, concrete block and more gallons of innocent water, all vaporized or destroyed.

I had heard of but didn't really know much about this chambering. I think their marketing worked because when the show was over I found myself wanting to buy a 1911 with the $275 .460 Rowland Conversion kit. BOOM!

Does anyone have one? Shot one? I envision this to certaily be a wildcat chambering and an accessory/option to enhance the ol'1911 should someone desire to juice up the power. I'm sure it accelerates the overall wear on the gun but you can always buy another one! Mike
 
Big Mike-

Very interesting that you posted this - I was actually searching here to find some more info on this. That was an AWESOME display. I must be ignorant, but I had never heard of such a thing. That image of him shooting the milk jug of water with the 45 and the with the .460 - wow! I was impressed.

David

Does anyone know if they have those conversions for smaller slides or just the gov't models?

David
 
Maybe some of this is useful -

The conversion kit is also available for specific Commander models, so a little more compact. http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm. They also post ballistics and a brief Super - Rowland comparison.

Clark advertises the Rowland as about 200 fps faster than the Super. That tracks with early reviews by gun mag writers and what I've seen in personal handloads. It's a nice pick up at heavier bullet weights but nothing resulting in huge energy gains. The Rowland operates at approx 40,000 PSI MAP, so there are a limited number of candidate guns for conversion.

The $8 Super spring conversion may really be as restricted in guns. A key consideration is the individual gun model's unlock timing. In guns that unlock early with Super loads, the recoil spring and slide see the brunt of the initial recoil energy rather than the slide and barrel lugs; you end up with a blow back rather than short recoil operation. Something to consider - they are both relatively specialized cartridges, both a lot of fun to shoot.

Joe
 
.45 Super brass is not thicker than R-P .45 ACP brass.

Rowland brass is. If you load the Super any hotter than the .45 ACP, you'd better have a fully supported barrel. So it can be $150 or so to convert a 1911 to .45 Super, not just $8. The Rowland is rated at about 35,000 CUP of pressure, standard .45 ACP about 19,000, Plus P .45 ACP about 23,000.
 
I think a .45 Super can do this. And all thats required is a heavier spring for $8.
Click to expand...

.45 Super tops out at about 700 ft-lbs, actually, at least if you don't want to blow up your gun. ;)
 
If you load the Super any hotter than the .45 ACP, you'd better have a fully supported barrel.
Click to expand...
BS. The super was designed for regular barrels. Besides, there are .45's with supported barrels - Para comes to mind.
 
.45 Super brass is not thicker than R-P .45 ACP brass.
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to be argumentive, but that is actually incorrect. I just finished a 460 Rowland / 45 Super project and part of the exercise was cross sectioning samples from various lots of standard, +P, Super and Rowland brass. I also followed up with Starline to verify findings. Super brass in production lots checked have a thicker web, Rowland brass was no heavier than standard factory Winchester and Remington brass - http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm. Starline uses a 0.050" minimum cup thickenss standard for the Rowland.

The pressure limit for the 460 Rowland is 40,000 CUP. The cartridge loads were developed by Accurate Powder and were intended to follow 45 Winchester Magnum operating criteria. If you check out the www.accuratepowder.com under the 460 Rowland data you'll find a synopsis of the cartridge's history and pressure ratings. Both Accurate and Hodgdon post handload data consistent with this pressure ceiling, 39,000 CUP plus.

In regard to case support, at an instrument recorded 40,000 PSI (not CUP), in a typically relieved Kimber chamber, there was not 0.001" increase in case diameter over standard ACP loads.

Joe
 
Sectioned and Miked .45 Super Starline, 460, and R-P

.45 ACP cases. Super was no thicker at all, anywhere. 460 Starline was, by .010" or so. Go ahead USE 50% hotter loads in an unsupported barrel, SEE what happens. Kiss your stocks and your magazine goodbye, and maybe get pcs of wood or metal imbedded in your hand.
 
I'd be really interested to see pictures of sectioned brass with visble headstamps that reflect your results. Incidentally, could you describe in objective terms and measurement what the difference is between unsupported and supported chambers? I've always been curious but never had it explained in specific terms.

Joe
 
My belief is that Starline 45 Super, Starline 460 Rowland, and all of the 10 brands of 45acp brass that I got mixed from Scharch, all give up the primer pocket at the exact same load out of my 1903 Turk Masuer 45acp conversion.

That is all 45 type brass I have tested is the same strength... except... Starline 45acp +P, which has thicker side walls. The way I get 45 Super loads to shoot in the poorest suport 45acp is with Starline 45acp +P brass. Good stuff.

I talked to the man at Starline, and he told me that the 45 Super and 460 Rowland are the same construction, but different heat treat from the 45acp brass. He said the 45acp +P brass is for barrels with poor case support.

There is an important exception to all this:
S&B 7.62x25mm brass weighs the same as Starline 7.62x25mm brass, but the S&B is good for an extra grain of powder before the primer falls out, shooting my Tokarevs.

Also, the Win9x23Win brass is WAY stronger than Starline 9mm Supercomp brass, but is also heavier.
 
Clark,

I'd be glad to send some Super brass up, it is notibly thicker than the rest, and I shoot their +P for everything else. Maybe it is a lot to lot issue. When I called Starline I got the "It is heavier" reference. When I read off mic readings from sectioned brass he backed that down to they are a minimum of 0.050" cup, the same as the Super and heavier than factory brass. The only problem is the Rem and Win brass I have is the same or thicker than the Rowland. He did reference the heat treatment difference. I am not sure it isn't mostly academic as a problem, however, I know you run very high chamber pressures at times, but up to 40,000 it seems to make no difference. I did get primer flow, but I get that even in ACP loads in the same gun. I use Starline for just about everyting including 45-70 (I think). It is very soft but work hardens quickly after a round or two of reloading. Hey, I have 4 or 5 thousand heavy Super cases - perhaps they are worth a premium.

Joe
 
Thanks Joe, I normally try to stay over on my site and out of the way. It was an interesting thread and nice to have a chance to comment.

Joe
 
I have a Mech Tec CCU (carbine conversion unit) chambered in 460 Rowland and it is impressive. Don't have the specs in front of me right now but i beleive its something like 1600 fps from a 16" barrel. If you shoot a 1911, you need to consider one of these toys for it. They are a great addition to a 1911.
 
Nimble1,

How is that set up? I've seen them in promotional pieces, but not a review or close up.

Joe
 
Joe,
Go to www.mechtechsys.com

It really is a great little toy. I have a Tasco red-dot on mine. Load it with a Wilson 10 shot mag and have fun.The neat thing about the 460 is that you can shoot standard 45's in it also. Have not had a chance to hunt with yet, should be great on hog and even deer.

Tom
 
Interesting. It looks like everything above the frame is changed for semi-auto operation. I didn't realize how many cartridge types they covered. I'd guess it would be a lot of fun to shoot and relatively inexpensive.
 
Joe,
Its a lot of fun to shoot. Its actually pretty accurate also. I picked up a Systima 45 to use with it and really have not shot it as a pistol much...LOL The CCU always gets plenty of questions at the range too.

Tom
 
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