Gunnerboy
Member
I am definately a true believer in this round now being able to shoot thru 1/2 inch of steel and then darn near gut a coyote carcass and still be able to recover the bullet with 39.5 grains left. I would like to see a 223 do that
5.45x39 7n6
- Thread starter Gunnerboy
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atblis
Member
They fire basically the same size bullet at nearly the same velocity. Why would you expect them to be that much different?
Gunnerboy
Member
The 223 just left a pin sized exit hole no big mess of a hole.
TenMillimaster
Member
Bullet construction is hugely different. Theres an air pocket in the tip of the 7n6, and a hardened steel penetrator.
Commercial .223 probably isn't designed for penetration, especially not through cover.
Commercial .223 probably isn't designed for penetration, especially not through cover.
atblis
Member
Armor plated coyotes?
Truth about the 5.45x39 mm in the surplus 7N6 bullet:
It is a copper washed, steel cased, lead and steel core bullet with a little hollow pocket, just behind the FMJ tip.
This round, will penetrat 5/8" mild armor plate out too 300 meters (330 yards).
On soft targets (Due too the hollow tip) it will start too tumble at 11 CM, and will make two full tumbles through the ave. torso.
The first tumble is a temporary wound cavity, and the second tumble is the permanate wound cavity.
It is called the poision bullet due to the length of time it takes too kill.
It is a lingering death, and in most cases in Afganastan, those shot with it did die.
Compare too the 5.56x45 mm SS109 / M855 bullet AP round:
Little hole in and out with mostly a straight through hole and very little internal damage.
Example, from the 14 1/2" barreled M-4, the volocity is slightly lower then from the 16" or 20" AR-15 or M-16.
The lower volocity will not allow the bullet too spall, tumble or fragment.
Penetration is still good though on harden targets, but proformance is lacking on soft targets.
5.45x39 mm muzzle volocity runs in the 3000 - 3100 FPS
5.56x45 mm muzzle volocity runs in the 2750 - 3000 FPS
this depends on barrel length, and I am compareing AP ammo only.
Stopper?
Much better then 5.56x45 mm.
Bet my life on it?
You bet ya !!!!
Availability after SHTF?
Who cares, at $119.00 per 1080 rounds in a seal tin from AIMSURPLUS, You can buy three times as much of it, as any other caliber.
Personal experiences with this round confirms the penetration, tumble, accuracy, and trigger recovory time on target.
It shoots very fast, flat, and less recoil then the typical M-4 /M-16 / AR-15, with less concern of weapon malfunctions, or field conditions ie snow, mud, sand, dust, ice, user abuse etc.
Most 5.56x45 mm rifles are like fine swiss watches, but the AK platform is the TIMEX of rifles, and the 5.45 is in my oppinion, the best combat round out there.
It incapacitates better, via trauma caused, then the NATO .223
Is it better then the 7.62x39 mm?
Not for targets closer then 300 meters, but the flater trajectory and lesser bullet drop due too weight makes it better beyond 500 meters.
Is it better then the 7.62x51 mm?
Not in any situation, other then you can carry twice the ammo for the same wieght.
The average shooter can not hit much, past 500 meters, but the guy carrying a .308 bolt gun, will most likely not be of the average variaty, so concider what you are asking, and how you intend too use your weapon in any given situation.
Will you be by youself, in a group, in the city, in the sticks, will it be a swamp area, or somewhere in the great white north?
Try too understand tactics needed, for the weapon of choice.
There is no one gun fits all situations.
Choose based off of your personal needs.
I chose the 5.45x39 mm as a primary carry MBR, but I also have a very nice bolt gun for the longer shots if needed.
Ogham
It is a copper washed, steel cased, lead and steel core bullet with a little hollow pocket, just behind the FMJ tip.
This round, will penetrat 5/8" mild armor plate out too 300 meters (330 yards).
On soft targets (Due too the hollow tip) it will start too tumble at 11 CM, and will make two full tumbles through the ave. torso.
The first tumble is a temporary wound cavity, and the second tumble is the permanate wound cavity.
It is called the poision bullet due to the length of time it takes too kill.
It is a lingering death, and in most cases in Afganastan, those shot with it did die.
Compare too the 5.56x45 mm SS109 / M855 bullet AP round:
Little hole in and out with mostly a straight through hole and very little internal damage.
Example, from the 14 1/2" barreled M-4, the volocity is slightly lower then from the 16" or 20" AR-15 or M-16.
The lower volocity will not allow the bullet too spall, tumble or fragment.
Penetration is still good though on harden targets, but proformance is lacking on soft targets.
5.45x39 mm muzzle volocity runs in the 3000 - 3100 FPS
5.56x45 mm muzzle volocity runs in the 2750 - 3000 FPS
this depends on barrel length, and I am compareing AP ammo only.
Stopper?
Much better then 5.56x45 mm.
Bet my life on it?
You bet ya !!!!
Availability after SHTF?
Who cares, at $119.00 per 1080 rounds in a seal tin from AIMSURPLUS, You can buy three times as much of it, as any other caliber.
Personal experiences with this round confirms the penetration, tumble, accuracy, and trigger recovory time on target.
It shoots very fast, flat, and less recoil then the typical M-4 /M-16 / AR-15, with less concern of weapon malfunctions, or field conditions ie snow, mud, sand, dust, ice, user abuse etc.
Most 5.56x45 mm rifles are like fine swiss watches, but the AK platform is the TIMEX of rifles, and the 5.45 is in my oppinion, the best combat round out there.
It incapacitates better, via trauma caused, then the NATO .223
Is it better then the 7.62x39 mm?
Not for targets closer then 300 meters, but the flater trajectory and lesser bullet drop due too weight makes it better beyond 500 meters.
Is it better then the 7.62x51 mm?
Not in any situation, other then you can carry twice the ammo for the same wieght.
The average shooter can not hit much, past 500 meters, but the guy carrying a .308 bolt gun, will most likely not be of the average variaty, so concider what you are asking, and how you intend too use your weapon in any given situation.
Will you be by youself, in a group, in the city, in the sticks, will it be a swamp area, or somewhere in the great white north?
Try too understand tactics needed, for the weapon of choice.
There is no one gun fits all situations.
Choose based off of your personal needs.
I chose the 5.45x39 mm as a primary carry MBR, but I also have a very nice bolt gun for the longer shots if needed.
Ogham
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tyeo098
Member
Moral of the story: Buy an AR in 545
amd6547
Member
I have been shooting 7N6 in a Saiga 5.45, and I am a believer.
Recoil seems about like shooting a 22lr...really accurate, really rapid fire is easily possible.
However, I have found that the Russian surplus ammo is dirtier than any other ammo I have ever fired. Currently, the muzzle of my Saiga is covered with black deposits that no bore cleaner has touched.
...And, being corrosive, I don't see it as a good choice for the AR.
Recoil seems about like shooting a 22lr...really accurate, really rapid fire is easily possible.
However, I have found that the Russian surplus ammo is dirtier than any other ammo I have ever fired. Currently, the muzzle of my Saiga is covered with black deposits that no bore cleaner has touched.
...And, being corrosive, I don't see it as a good choice for the AR.
dfariswheel
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 6,656
The 7N6-PS bullet core isn't a penetrator.
It's a mild steel, blunt ended core that's not armor piercing, which is why it can be imported into the US.
Here a 7N6-PS bullet I cut in half.
Note the copper plated steel outer jacket.
The mild steel blunt core.
The thin layer of lead between the core and the jacket and the lead cap on top.
The air space in the front.
It's a mild steel, blunt ended core that's not armor piercing, which is why it can be imported into the US.
Here a 7N6-PS bullet I cut in half.
Note the copper plated steel outer jacket.
The mild steel blunt core.
The thin layer of lead between the core and the jacket and the lead cap on top.
The air space in the front.
atblis
Member
Pfft. I'll say it again, same size bullet, same velocity. If there are any differences, they are minor. Out of rifle length barrels at shorter ranges, M193 is better on soft targets. The yawing thing doesn't make up for the small size of the bullet. On the other hand, M193 when it fragments on a soft target does.
I love that one. If you really think about it, what does that anecdote actually say? It means, they were shot, and then died most likely days later. Perhaps not even incapacitated at first. Yeah, that sounds like a real affective round.
Maybe a lack of good medical treatment had something to do with it?Similar bullet weight, going at nearly the same velocity. It generates the same recoil, and any perceived differences are due to the platform, simply perceived, or merely wishful thinking. In fact, I think the 5.45 AK I have recoils more than any of the ARs I have.
There's not really a big enough performance difference between 5.56 and 5.45 to make an argument either way.
About the only call on the 5.45 I can make is due to its less dense construction versus the M193 (5.45 is mostly steel whereas M193 is copper and lead), the 5.45 has a much longer aspect so when it tumbles it creates a wider wound. The other feature of this bullet is that it tumbles unpredictably, and after the second tumble will sharply yaw away from the original direction of the travel. That is what made it so hard for Taliban "medics" to treat 5.45 wounds...there was no telling of the direction of the wound channel unlike .30 cal and other rounds.
What I am wondering is does any one have information on the bullet's terminal dynamics at say 200 and 300 meters range. We know that M193 must stay above the 2700FPS threshold to reliably fragment, and that beyond 100-120 yards, M193 will not reliable fragment 100% of the time, but I have not seen nor read anything similar of the 5.45.
What I am wondering is does any one have information on the bullet's terminal dynamics at say 200 and 300 meters range. We know that M193 must stay above the 2700FPS threshold to reliably fragment, and that beyond 100-120 yards, M193 will not reliable fragment 100% of the time, but I have not seen nor read anything similar of the 5.45.
Gunnerboy
Member
I can find out from a ex soviet solider if he knows anything about that 5.45 dynamics for you, would be interesting to know.
amd6547
Member
My AR has a standard AR flash hider, while a second upper I use is a "post ban" with a non threaded barrel and no muzzle device.
My 5.45 Saiga has the very effective AK74 muzzle break...the recoil and muzzle rise of the Saiga is very noticeably lower.
My 5.45 Saiga has the very effective AK74 muzzle break...the recoil and muzzle rise of the Saiga is very noticeably lower.
Gunnerboy
Member
well what i found out about the terminal ballistics is that in the late 1980s the soviets were trying to improve the 5.45 so they were comparing it to the 5.56 in some tests and what they found is that at 300m the 5.45 7n6 on soft targets had a almost 10cm exit cavity while the 5.56 not sure what bullet, had only just about a 6cm exit cavity also that the 5.56 had better penetration on steel targets but the 7n6 wasnt an armor piercing round so that wasnt too surprising. He also said that the 5.45 had more energy transferred to targets behind the designated one than the 5.56.
I did some testing with Wolf commercial 60gr fmj...and guess what? It's hollow inside. Knock the tip off and you have a very nasty hollow point that obliterates water jugs, milk cartons, launches water-filled steel cans 30ft in the air, and still penetrates 12 inches or so...
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