5.56 AR stopping power (and the x39 and 5.45 competition)

[JShirley]

The big takeaway is probably "all will work, but bullet construction and velocity makes a huge difference ".

Sometimes that's in practical accuracy. I hit a trotting deer with a reduced recoil 12 gauge slug, without considering that the slug was going 500 fps slower than I was used to. That resulted in a hit about 4" too far back, leading to a lot of tracking. So the slug did its job, but I would have put it in the right place if it had been faster. This speaks to @C-grunt's post about hitting an enemy whose exact distance is unknown: higher velocity/flatter trajectory makes it easier.

John

 

[someguy2800]

I have no military experience and I don't shoot FMJ military style ammo, so I have no opinion to offer on military ammo, however I have shot critters from small to medium sized game with both 223 and 7.62x39. I don't see a whole lot of difference between shooting something with a 223/556 loaded with a heavy expanding bullet like a 75 grain BTHP, or hollow point or soft point 7.62x39. They both expand slowly and penetrate.

A 223 loaded fast with a 50 or 55 grain fragmenting varmint bullet is a whole different ballgame entirely though. That will literally turn small critters into mist and chunks. A pretty frightening prospect to get hit with that anywhere at short range. I'll let you be the judge of whether that is a good or bad thing.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I have no military experience and I don't shoot FMJ military style ammo, so I have no opinion to offer on military ammo, however I have shot critters from small to medium sized game with both 223 and 7.62x39. I don't see a whole lot of difference between shooting something with a 223/556 loaded with a heavy expanding bullet like a 75 grain BTHP, or hollow point or soft point 7.62x39. They both expand slowly and penetrate.

A 223 loaded fast with a 50 or 55 grain fragmenting varmint bullet is a whole different ballgame entirely though. That will literally turn small critters into mist and chunks. A pretty frightening prospect to get hit with that anywhere at short range. I'll let you be the judge of whether that is a good or bad thing.

You actually have some profound observations here, hiding under your words. On animals of similar size, you often see comparable amounts of damage from a various range of calibers with similar bullets. More than once we have been confused by bullet tracts being 6.5 Grendel or .308 until tracing to the terminus of the wound channel where we found what remained of the bullet and could identified the caliber. The similarities of the wound channels often strongly overshadow the subtle differences. A Venn diagram of the results might show two circles (one for each similar [not hugely different] caliber) where the circles overlap more than they diverge when it comes to wound channels.

As to small critters and fragmenting rounds, this is a problem I have with gel tests and the amazing temporary wound cavity and distortion of the gel (usually shown in slow motion) that makes it look like the impact is really dramatic. However, that dramatic expansion, while it doesn't usually happen in bigger animals due to muscle, skin, etc. that helps encase the expansion energy, is more apt to happen in smaller animals that don't have the same encasement abilities (thinner skin, muscle, connective tissue, etc.) and the smaller animals sometimes come apart. This result is exacerbated when the bullet comes apart quickly, expressing energy in expansion more so than penetration.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

As to small critters and fragmenting rounds, this is a problem I have with gel tests and the amazing temporary wound cavity and distortion of the gel (usually shown in slow motion) that makes it look like the impact is really dramatic. However, that dramatic expansion, while it doesn't usually happen in bigger animals due to muscle, skin, etc. that helps encase the expansion energy, is more apt to happen in smaller animals that don't have the same encasement abilities (thinner skin, muscle, connective tissue, etc.) and the smaller animals sometimes come apart. This result is exacerbated when the bullet comes apart quickly, expressing energy in expansion more so than penetration.

The temporary cavity simply exceeds the size of the small animal.

The same effect happens when a sniper's expanding bullet penetrates the cranium of a human target.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The temporary cavity simply exceeds the size of the small animal.

Not exactly. Encasement is critical to whether or not the animal comes apart. If the hide, muscle, etc. are sufficiently strong, they will contain the expansion even if it would otherwise be beyond the size of the animal.

 

[d2wing]

The Russians and Chinese have both developed round more similar to the 5.56 than the 7,62x39 due to it's(5.56 NATO) greater effectiveness. By decreasing the velocity by going to a heavier bullet like most do for hunting as well as using shorter barrels than 20 inches the 5.56/233 loses some of it velocity advantage and the wounds are more alike. I have read that the threshold is around 2600 FPS. I have shot deer with soft point versions of both and find the .223 version does more damage to the lung cavity but with proper bullet placement both do the job. And you should always have proper bullet placement. Easier with the .223. Over 50 years there is no question that the 5.56 NATO, despite it's shortcomings has proven it is more effective for combat than the 7.62x39. But I was perfectly happy with my M-14 too. One of my buddies was armed with a scoped, accurized M-14. You can see that sometimes I was armed with an M-60 that shoots 7.62 NATO. Now that was a more effective weapon. But no fun to carry.

 

[12Bravo20]

You can see that sometimes I was armed with an M-60 that shoots 7.62 NATO. Now that was a more effective weapon. But no fun to carry.

My primary issue weapon until I made E5 was the M60. I was the skinniest guy and always got stuck with the pig. Carrying a 28 pound weapon is no fun until it is needed and it definitely did its job well when needed. I never had any problems with the M60.

 

[d2wing]

Yeah, In this picture I had accidently twisted the belt and delinked it. The next pic I was fixing it.

 

[David Hoback]

Internet rumor says Rittenhouse used M193.

Still love that video with that BLM Criminal’s bicep coming apart on impact of the 223!

 

[citizenconn]

From my experience the intermediate rifle cartridges (5.56, 7.62x39, 5.45) have adequate lethality.

Hitting someone in the head with a rock will kill them. .22 LR has killed plenty of people.
Just my opinion, but I don't consider the .223/5.56 a true intermediate cartridge.
I was out of the service by the situation in the Mog, but I have a number of acquaintances who served then and said it took 10-15 shots to stop many enemy combatants hopped up on khat. That makes lethality a broad spectrum.
M193 was designed around a particular tool and as that tool evolved its effectiveness has become less optimal. I shoot 5.56 in barrels from 7.5" to 24" with bullet weights from 40-80 gr and twist rates from 1:7 to 1:12. Which configuration depends on many variables. The downside of having to stick with only one or two configurations is that you may not always have the best tool for the job. Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[daniel craig]

Correct me if I am wrong, as I certainly am human, but I was under the impression that a big reason the 5.56 was originally chosen was it’s ability to seriously wound and not outright kill an enemy soldier. The rationale being that wounded men takes others to carry, treat, rehabilitate, etc. therefore adding to logistical headaches and sapping enemy numbers and morale. A dead man is just that, DRT. (Dead Right There)

Many of you far more knowledgeable will hopefully set me straight on this if I am off base.

Stay safe.

I've heard that rumor too but I find it extremely hard to believe. A dead enemy is far better than a wounded enemy. The wounded enemy depending on the severity of their wounds can still return fire and still poses a threat to you. A dead enemy does not. The one thing I can tell you is that getting shot with either one of them sucks and both of them will kill you what more do you need?

If you can get around in a vital area of your target from a close enough distance that the round still has enough penetration to get into that vital area then caliber starts to make less of a difference.

It's been my experience that most people who quibble about the effectiveness of one cartridge over the other obviously outside of the extremes like 22 versus 30-06 are really just kind of dancing around the fact that the shooter's ability to put a round in a vital area with whatever equipment and ammo they're using makes a heck of a lot more difference than caliber they're using.

 

[C-grunt]

Hitting someone in the head with a rock will kill them. .22 LR has killed plenty of people.
Just my opinion, but I don't consider the .223/5.56 a true intermediate cartridge.
I was out of the service by the situation in the Mog, but I have a number of acquaintances who served then and said it took 10-15 shots to stop many enemy combatants hopped up on khat. That makes lethality a broad spectrum.
M193 was designed around a particular tool and as that tool evolved its effectiveness has become less optimal. I shoot 5.56 in barrels from 7.5" to 24" with bullet weights from 40-80 gr and twist rates from 1:7 to 1:12. Which configuration depends on many variables. The downside of having to stick with only one or two configurations is that you may not always have the best tool for the job. Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

One of my 1st Sgts was there and said they shot a lot of people. He never complained about it.

We also shot a lot of guys in Iraq with M855 and it killed the crap out of them. My brother in law was a Marine infantryman in Fallujah and he never witnessed any major issues.

I shot a guy in the chest with a 223 hollow point, that was whacked out on meth. Fatal wound. He was still up and armed, so i shot him again and he fell over.

I understand weird things happen and sometimes M855 acts weird. Though i think those problems are way overblown on the internet. But I've seen a lot of people shot with 5.56 and 223. I know a decent amount of people who have shot people with 5.56 and/or 223. I know a decent amount of people who have seen people shot with 5.56 and 223. I have yet to see or hear first hand accounts of the round not be effective with good hits.

 

[d2wing]

I've heard that rumor too but I find it extremely hard to believe. A dead enemy is far better than a wounded enemy. The wounded enemy depending on the severity of their wounds can still return fire and still poses a threat to you. A dead enemy does not. The one thing I can tell you is that getting shot with either one of them sucks and both of them will kill you what more do you need?

If you can get around in a vital area of your target from a close enough distance that the round still has enough penetration to get into that vital area then caliber starts to make less of a difference.

It's been my experience that most people who quibble about the effectiveness of one cartridge over the other obviously outside of the extremes like 22 versus 30-06 are really just kind of dancing around the fact that the shooter's ability to put a round in a vital area with whatever equipment and ammo they're using makes a heck of a lot more difference than caliber they're using.

I served in Vietnam. That was never a United States doctrine. It was said to be a doctrine of the VC and NVA. We were trained to kill. How the heck would you shoot to wound anyway in the heat of combat. Dumb idea in my book.

 

[mljdeckard]

I appreciate the extended range and penetrating aspects of M855, but as a soldier I am more likely to need to engage vehicles than as a civilian. I keep one magazine of them available, but it's for 'just in case'. I normally run 55 grain varmint loads for defensive use.

(I have switched to a VR80 shotgun as my primary defensive long arm.)

I tell my soldiers, do not underestimate this round. You do NOT want to get hit with it. The tradeoff for the smaller bullet means faster follow-up shots and more hits. While I was deployed, I never said to myself; "I really wish I had an AK-47 instead.) A hit with any 5.56 is better than any miss with a .30 caliber bullet.

The one compromise I will concede is that I like it better in an M-4 than in a n M-16 A2. (Which is what I deployed with.) I think that the round has enough velocity that the shorter barrel doesn't hurt performance, and to me, a mid-size cartridge makes the most sense in a mid-size rifle. If I ever had to deploy with a full-size rifle again, it might as well be a DMR.

 

[daniel craig]

I served in Vietnam. That was never a United States doctrine. It was said to be a doctrine of the VC and NVA. We were trained to kill. How the heck would you shoot to wound anyway in the heat of combat. Dumb idea in my book.

Agreed

 

[JShirley]

One of my 1st Sgts was there and said they shot a lot of people. He never complained about it.

We also shot a lot of guys in Iraq with M855 and it killed the crap out of them. My brother in law was a Marine infantryman in Fallujah and he never witnessed any major issues.

.

The Corps was using long-barreled versions of the M16, like the M16A4, as their general issue rifle until recently. I would expect those 20" barrels to have great effectiveness to at least 150 meters with M855.

I shot a guy in the chest with a 223 hollow point, that was whacked out on meth. Fatal wound. He was still up and armed, so i shot him again and he fell over

Do you remember which round you used? I think nonhunters who have also not seen combat have this idea that you shoot something or someone, and it falls over, bang-flop. I've seen solidly hit deer jump up and run when approached, over 30 minutes later. I've seen throat-shot deer, with blood splatters the size of dinner plates, run if approached too soon. Former staff member Byron Quick knew a guy who took 2 hits with 20 gauge slugs to the chest. He was still responsive when EMS arrived (though dead before reaching the hospital).

The closest thing I've see to instant shutdowns are shots just behind/below the ear. Well, that and my first deer who was so close I shot him with 00 without raising the gun to my shoulder!

John

 

[JShirley]

The one compromise I will concede is that I like it better in an M-4 than in a n M-16 A2. (Which is what I deployed with.) I think that the round has enough velocity that the shorter barrel doesn't hurt performance, and to me, a mid-size cartridge makes the most sense in a mid-size rifle. If I ever had to deploy with a full-size rifle again, it might as well be a DMR.

I agree with this. Around 2000, I let myself be persuaded by a friend and POST certified trainer to buy a AR15 in traditional M16A2 layout. I think it was $1100.

After I got it, I thought, "This is stupid. Why do I have such a large rifle for such a small cartridge?" So I bought an IMI M1 Carbine. All of my AR-15s that have barrel lengths over 16 in now, are in other calibers like 6.5 Grendel and .224 Valkyrie.

I didn't love the AR15 initially, but after being in an infantry unit training to go to war, I've spent more time shooting an M4 than every other type of firearm, combined. (There was a period in 2002 in A CO, 1-5 INF when we averaged 3240 rounds per Soldier, per month. And we did this for months.) There are things I don't love about the AR15, but it's effective in its role, ammunition is readily available, it's not horribly expensive now, and it's easy to customize. And it's easy to be deliberately dangerous with.

John

 

[C-grunt]

The Corps was using long-barreled versions of the M16, like the M16A4, as their general issue rifle until recently. I would expect those 20" barrels to have great effectiveness to at least 150 meters with M855.



Do you remember which round you used? I think nonhunters who have also not seen combat have this idea that you shoot something or someone, and it falls over, bang-flop. I've seen solidly hit deer jump up and run when approached, over 30 minutes later. I've seen throat-shot deer, with blood splatters the size of dinner plates, run if approached too soon. Former staff member Byron Quick knew a guy who took 2 hits with 20 gauge slugs to the chest. He was still responsive when EMS arrived (though dead before reaching the hospital).

The closest thing I've see to instant shutdowns are shots just behind/below the ear. Well, that and my first deer who was so close I shot him with 00 without raising the gun to my shoulder!

John

Funny anecdote. My brother in law and I were both infantry at the same time in the early to mid 2000s. I was Army, he was Marine. I carried a M16A4 and he carried a M4.

Round was Federal TRU 223E which uses a 55 grain Sierra Gameking bullet.

 

[JShirley]

Funny anecdote. My brother in law and I were both infantry at the same time in the early to mid 2000s. I was Army, he was Marine. I carried a M16A4 and he carried a M4.
.

That is odd. I only used an M16A4 in basic training. I named her Emily, after Emily Dickinson, because I hated her

 

[Shawn Dodson]

In March 1989, Jamie Martin Wise was shot by an Alexandria, VA, PD marksman with an AR. Wise was hit squarely in the torso, from behind, as he held a shotgun to the head of a hostage. The bullet nicked either the heart or aorta, I can't remember, but when he was hit he staggered slightly, at which time the hostage wiggled free and ran. Wise then recovered, and shot SWAT Cpl. Charles Hill in the face, killing him, then racked the shotgun and shot and seriously wounded SWAT Ofcr. Andrew Chelchowski in the legs. Wise finally went down in a hail of police gunfire. The shooting is known as "The incident at 316 Hopkins Court". See - HOSTAGE-TAKER, OFFICER KILLED IN ALEXANDRIA - The Washington Post

 

[JShirley]

Probably a good reminder to "shoot until the threat is non-threatening".

Also, "bird shot is for birds". Buckshot or slug almost certainly would have taken Chelchowski out of the fight, and left him dead within minutes. As it was, the 2nd officer could have kept fighting, if he'd had his weapon.

 

[someguy2800]

Yeah after you've watched about 20 deer bound off into the slough grass looking as if they had nothing wrong with them when their heart was just obliterated by a 270 Winchester at 50 yards, you kind of come to the realization that there is no such thing as a guaranteed stopper.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In March 1989, Jamie Martin Wise was shot by an Alexandria, VA, PD marksman with an AR. Wise was hit squarely in the torso, from behind, as he held a shotgun to the head of a hostage. The bullet nicked either the heart or aorta, I can't remember, but when he was hit he staggered slightly, at which time the hostage wiggled free and ran. Wise then recovered, and shot SWAT Cpl. Charles Hill in the face, killing him, then racked the shotgun and shot and seriously wounded SWAT Ofcr. Andrew Chelchowski in the legs. Wise finally went down in a hail of police gunfire. The shooting is known as "The incident at 316 Hopkins Court". See - HOSTAGE-TAKER, OFFICER KILLED IN ALEXANDRIA - The Washington Post

Chelchowski, testified to a slightly different version of the story. He was the 2nd officer hit by Wise. Both of the officers had disarmed themselves before the sniper fired...

"I only heard a very faint shot, but I could see the bullet leave the body when his shirt billowed and the blood came out," Chelchowski said. As Wise fell to his right, he lifted his shotgun and fired the blast that killed Hill.

Chelchowski said that as he tried to scramble to safety, he saw Wise "work the action of the shotgun once more and fire a second round." That shot struck Chelchowski, who nows walks with a pronounced limp.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...tandoff/b80feb47-6d2b-4fd6-88e3-7d0e12e766bb/

 

[citizenconn]

My primary issue weapon until I made E5 was the M60. I was the skinniest guy and always got stuck with the pig. Carrying a 28 pound weapon is no fun until it is needed and it definitely did its job well when needed. I never had any problems with the M60.

Me either as long as I had someone competent feeding it. I have known a couple to be jamomatics, though.

 

[C-grunt]

That is odd. I only used an M16A4 in basic training. I named her Emily, after Emily Dickinson, because I hated her

My unit got new rifles just before I got there in 2002. The Brigade or Division command decided to issue out M16A4s with the idea that we were a mechanized unit and therefore the weight difference wasn't much of a penalty. There were a few M4s in my unit but the majority carried the M16A4. They went to all M4s around 2007/2008.