5.56 AR stopping power (and the x39 and 5.45 competition)

[robin banks]

You're wrong. That is armchair quarterbacking well after the fact. the original review of M16 performance in Vietnam spoke glowingly of its "killing power" compared to the m14. You can find the report online, if you search a bit.

Edited to add: you can see this is the link Dave posted: Early reports of experimental AR-15s from Vietnam talked about “devastating” damage and wounds. (Of course, there was a misunderstanding that these wounds were caused by the high speed of the bullet, instead of the actual wounding mechanism, which was yawing and sometimes fragmentation in the body.)

they were lying about the 5.5 blowing arms and legs off just like biden and the 9mm blowing lungs out

 

[robin banks]

Yeah, you seem so persecuted. Again, energy is energy. 7.62x39mm has more of it at closer ranges. This means it is potentially more destructive, with the right ammo.

The idea that very fast rifle rounds cause more damage is not a new idea. Some folks have nursed this belief since the .30 WCF, then the .250-3000. And for mass, it's true: a lighter bullet going much faster can do as much damage- or, close enough to it- to replace a much heavier, slower bullet. So we've seen a trend away from large bore, slow cartridges to smaller bore, faster ones. But a difference of 600 fps doesn't magically do an immense amount more damage, when both bullets are already traveling over 2000 fps. The damage demonstrated by M193 bullets vs the issued COMBLOCK 57-N-231 in Vietnam was due to bullet construction. There is some M193 built by NATO allies with thicker jackets which doesn't demonstrate the wounding potential of US-made M193, despite being the same velocity.

To quote a member, "You can believe whatever you want. That doesn't make it true."

me and my friend went into the woods with a Mini 14 and an AK. found a rock cliff 20' high and mostly flat face.orange spray painted circles on the rock went 80 yds back. the mini had 62 gr bullets and hit the rock face pretty hard I thought. shot the 39 from the AK and it hit 3-4 times harder. I was amazed the sound it made and the chipped rocks it blasted. to me there was no comparison

 

[d2wing]

Yeah after you've watched about 20 deer bound off into the slough grass looking as if they had nothing wrong with them when their heart was just obliterated by a 270 Winchester at 50 yards, you kind of come to the realization that there is no such thing as a guaranteed stopper.

That's a fact. I have shot dozens of deer mostly big ones with all sorts of weapons. Sometimes they drop right there, often they run 10-40 yards. or even more. Most were heart shots with a few exceptions. The faster the bullet the more damage but even so, not a great predictor of how fast they die.

 

[C-grunt]

me and my friend went into the woods with a Mini 14 and an AK. found a rock cliff 20' high and mostly flat face.orange spray painted circles on the rock went 80 yds back. the mini had 62 gr bullets and hit the rock face pretty hard I thought. shot the 39 from the AK and it hit 3-4 times harder. I was amazed the sound it made and the chipped rocks it blasted. to me there was no comparison

Are you really using shooting the side of a hill as a basis of comparison?

 

[12Bravo20]

me and my friend went into the woods with a Mini 14 and an AK. found a rock cliff 20' high and mostly flat face.orange spray painted circles on the rock went 80 yds back. the mini had 62 gr bullets and hit the rock face pretty hard I thought. shot the 39 from the AK and it hit 3-4 times harder. I was amazed the sound it made and the chipped rocks it blasted. to me there was no comparison

If you really want to hear a good "thump" then shoot a 58 caliber black powder rifle into that same hill. Sorry but shooting into a rocky hill is not a good indication of how a round performs. Myself and plenty of other here have used 5.56 with good success in combat while having 7.82x39 shot at us. we have all seen what each does when someone is shot by either round.

 

[robin banks]

If you really want to hear a good "thump" then shoot a 58 caliber black powder rifle into that same hill. Sorry but shooting into a rocky hill is not a good indication of how a round performs. Myself and plenty of other here have used 5.56 with good success in combat while having 7.82x39 shot at us. we have all seen what each does when someone is shot by either round.

then why are they switching to a new round? a soft lead bullet from a 58 will have hardly any impact on a rock cliff like a steel core rifle round. the question of whose rifle and round is better is silly anyway. US has yet to fight a war since WW11 where an enemy can fight back but wars now use drones arty missiles attack helicopters tanks etc and soon robots so whose rifle is better by 4% means nothing

 

[robin banks]

Are you really using shooting the side of a hill as a basis of comparison?

yes it was a ROCK cliff and the 39 slammed it way harder then the 5.56 like it or not

 

[someguy2800]

That's a fact. I have shot dozens of deer mostly big ones with all sorts of weapons. Sometimes they drop right there, often they run 10-40 yards. or even more. Most were heart shots with a few exceptions. The faster the bullet the more damage but even so, not a great predictor of how fast they die.

Yeah from my personal observations higher velocity, like 2800+ fps impact seams to be more likely to get drop right there kills. My 25-06 does it with more regularity than anything else I've observed, but if they do run off it results in almost no blood trail to follow. What I believe is happening is that the instant drops are actually the deer just being knocked unconscious and they die 30 seconds later from lack of oxygen to the brain. For the ones that run it is just starting a 20-30 second timer till their brain runs out of oxygen and down they go. I think the same thing applies to humans as I've seen videos of people absorb fatal rounds to the chest without really reacting, and then 20-30 seconds later they just slump.

 

[12Bravo20]

Higher velocity of 7.62x39?

Here you go.



https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/223-556-vs-762x39/

Again, shooting an animal is different than shooting a human when their adrenaline is pumping during combat. I would say go ask all the Viet Cons/NVA troops, Iraqi troops, insurgents and terrorists since the 1960's. But they aren't going to talk.

 

[C-grunt]

yes it was a ROCK cliff and the 39 slammed it way harder then the 5.56 like it or not

Cool? Ive never been in a gunfight with a ROCK cliff before. But if I'm facing an oncoming avalanche I'll be sure to grab the AK.

 

[JShirley]

then why are they switching to a new round?

What are you talking about? The new Sig will be limited to squad support and DMR use for everyone but Special Operations Forces (who have already often been using weapons other than the M4). Designated Marksmen and crew-served weapons already use different ammo (even if it's just a different ammo type, like Mk 262 or linked), so a different caliber for those weapons doesn't make a huge difference.

Yes, I know what the goal is. But this is another M14. Soldiers will love it, until it hits Regular Army troops. It'll be another FBI 10mm debacle, and it'll probably be issued to 1 or 2 large units, then all those rifles will be collected back up, except for the few for SDMs. It'll probably stay in use for the automatic rifles, unless there are too many catastrophic chamber ruptures.


John

 

[someguy2800]

What are you talking about? The new Sig will be limited to squad support and DMR use for everyone but Special Operations Forces (who have already often been using weapons other than the M4). Designated Marksmen and crew-served weapons already use different ammo (even if it's just a different ammo type, like Mk 262 or linked), so a different caliber for those weapons doesn't make a huge difference.

Yes, I know what the goal is. But this is another M14. Soldiers will love it, until it hits Regular Army troops. It'll be another FBI 10mm debacle, and it'll probably be issued to 1 or 2 large units, then all those rifles will be collected back up, except for the few for SDMs. It'll probably stay in use for the automatic rifles, unless there are too many catastrophic chamber ruptures.


John

My understanding is that it is supposed to be general issue, but I agree 100% that I think they are going to realize that this is the M14 all over again and will change their mind.

 

[JShirley]

My understanding is that it is supposed to be general issue, but I agree 100% that I think they are going to realize that this is the M14 all over again and will change their mind.

Yeah, there are supposed to be 400,000 total. I'm doubtful all of the "2nd stage" 107,000 XM5 Rifles and 13,000 XM250 Automatic Rifles will be filled. I believe we'll see maybe 30,000 XM5s received.


John

 

[Bearded Phil]

Still love that video with that BLM Criminal’s bicep coming apart on impact of the 223!

****ing gross.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Chelchowski, testified to a slightly different version of the story. He was the 2nd officer hit by Wise. Both of the officers had disarmed themselves before the sniper fired...

"I only heard a very faint shot, but I could see the bullet leave the body when his shirt billowed and the blood came out," Chelchowski said. As Wise fell to his right, he lifted his shotgun and fired the blast that killed Hill.

Chelchowski said that as he tried to scramble to safety, he saw Wise "work the action of the shotgun once more and fire a second round." That shot struck Chelchowski, who nows walks with a pronounced limp.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...tandoff/b80feb47-6d2b-4fd6-88e3-7d0e12e766bb/

I lived in the D.C area at the time of the incident and obtained a copy of the shooting video from WUSA TV news. I sent it to Charles Remsberg, at Calibre Press. He added it to his Street Survival Seminar.

I also got a copy of the Alexandria PD incident report and autopsy and sent them to Martin Facker at the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory.

Chelchowski's quote in the news article is taken directly from the Alexandria PD incident report. Both Chelchowski and Hill simply lowered their weapons as a act of good faith in attempt to negotiate with Wise when Wise approached them with a shotgun to the hostage's head.

Fackler and I both agreed the incident report was a whitewash to deflect responsibility from the department. The report stated that the shot should have instantly killed Wise.

Sadly, Chelchowski committed suicide because of this incident.

 

[CapnMac]

I believe we'll see maybe 30,000 XM5s received.

Sounds about right, 5 Regiments' worth.
And having to trade in 7# carbine for 13# "carbines" will likely have a bumpy road, too (even with the half-powered "training round" in wide use).

 

[JShirley]

The report stated that the shot should have instantly killed Wise.

Sadly, Chelchowski committed suicide because of this incident.

As several of us hunters have noted, even heart shots don't guarantee instant kills.

Chelchowski must be the saddest part.

 

[JShirley]

Sounds about right, 5 Regiments' worth.
And having to trade in 7# carbine for 13# "carbines" will likely have a bumpy road, too (even with the half-powered "training round" in wide use).

Yeah, I see most of them with maybe 18" barrels in SDM hands 5 years from now.

 

[CapnMac]

Yeah, I see most of them with maybe 18" barrels in SDM hands 5 years from now.

And maybe not with that monster scope that does everything but stream netflix, but a more sensible DMR galls.

Now, that XM250 has SOC written all over it. Why hump a M240B, when you can have a suppressed weapon of Minimi size?

The question will be if they show up at Ft Myers before Crane.

 

[JShirley]

Now, that XM250 has SOC written all over it. Why hump a M240B, when you can have a suppressed weapon of Minimi size?

And as much- or more- power than 7.62x51mm.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Again, shooting an animal is different than shooting a human when their adrenaline is pumping during combat. I would say go ask all the Viet Cons/NVA troops, Iraqi troops, insurgents and terrorists since the 1960's. But they aren't going to talk.

You might be amazed at what feral hogs do once their adrenaline has dumped.

 

[12Bravo20]

You might be amazed at what feral hogs do once their adrenaline has dumped.

No I would not be surprised or amazed. I, along with every other service member, ever stationed in Germany had to deal with the wild boars there. Those make feral hog here look small and docile.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No I would not be surprised or amazed. I, along with every other service member, ever stationed in Germany had to deal with the wild boars there. Those make feral hog here look small and docile.

Okay, so you are negating your own statement above. Got it.

 

[12Bravo20]

Okay, so you are negating your own statement above. Got it.

No I am not "negating" my previous statements. Man is the most dangerous creature out there. I have been in combat several times, as others here have too. We know that that the 5.56x45 works and has been working since the 1960's. Myself and others have seen people shot with 5.56x45, 5.45x39, and 7.62x39.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You seem a bit edgy on this, LOL. You make it sound like animals can't be so dangerous when the adrenaline dumps and they most certainly can be, often extremely dangerous. Take away the pop guns and technology from man and he is nothing but soft underbelly all over without notable speed, strength, or significant natural weaponry such as teeth, claws, spines, etc.