50 Beowulf

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I am sorry if I confused everyone with my statement about the venerable 45/70.
I was referring to the 45/70 standard that are most loads you can find in the shelves these days. Just look at the spreads that I sent in the latest link.
I would also want the 45/70 400gr in strong version on a marlin if confronted with a grizzly. I am pretty sure the Beowolf or the others could take care of it as well but lets say whatever system, at close range, I rather to be inside an armored vehicle. lol! I think why native americans call the Grizzly hard to kill and that's for a reason. Read about it in the expedition of Lewis and Clark. So funny they thought they were missing with their rifles when in fact they had 27 bullets on the animal through the lungs, neck and hearth and still was charging.
Also I would much rather opt to be at 400 yards with my .338 lapua just in case. lol!

Sorry for the diversion, and anyhow I am sorry if I created any confusion. I just wanted to show some links with some facts.

Also if you just want raw power build an upper for this round but make sure the billet is reinforced steel and talk to the trauma surgeon first to be on call.....

bigbullet.gif

:D

Cheers,
E.
 
1stmarine wrote:

I just wanted to show some links with some facts
Click to expand...
Well...I don't contest that what you linked and cut/pasted was done verbatim, but that doesn't make it "fact" in light of several variables.

For instance, you posted the following:

The energy ranking goes as follows:
1-Beowulf ... around 3,000 ft/lb
2-450 Bushmaster ...around 2,800 ft/lb
3-Socom ...around 2,400 ft/lb
Click to expand...

Here it seems you to seek to show the BEO as the most powerful of the three, with the Bushy second and the SOCOM third.

Problem is: You snatched the figure for the 400 gr. load in the BEO, using a 24" barrel and compared to two completely different loads in the other two offerings.

Here are the actual figures from the links you provided:

[B]Beo:[/B]
300 gr Speer Gold Dot 1,870 ft/s @ 2,330 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 24”)

SOCOM:
300 gr 1,900 ft/s @ 2,405 ft•lbf (Barrel length unknown)
250 gr 2,000 ft/s) @ 2,167 ft•lbf

Bushy:
250 gr SST 2,214 ft/s @ 2,722 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 20”) Note: Not 2,800 ft.lbf

When we compare "apples to apples" as in the 300 gr. load for the BEO and the 300 gr. for the SOCOM, the SOCOM slightly bests it.

When the SOCOM 250 gr. is compared to the 250 in the Bushy, the 450 comes out ahead. I would like to point out however, that the test barrel for the Bushy was 20" and the BEO a whopping 24". The barrel length for the SOCOM is not known, but virtually EVERY bit of load data Marty (Teppo Jutsu) has sent me, has been for a 16" barrel.

So, there are variables here too. One other minor note...is that instead of rounding down 22 fps for the Bushy, you rounded UP 88 fps to arrive at 2,800 ft.lb

-----------------------------------------------------

Some of the following is subjective, I understand that...and allow for some "license" to allow for hyperbole. Just the same...I have a few objections. I wouldn't normally post them, but I've literally been asked to.

The socom is also hard to feed,
Click to expand...
I'm guessing you mean it is expensive...or that ammo is not readily available, not sure really?

expensive and I don't think it will last but time only will tell.
Click to expand...
I can only say that "expensive" must be offered up as relative to something else. For me...the expense is of no consequence...I chose the SOCOM for other reasons.

As for how long the cartridge will last, who knows. It has been around for quite some time now, RRA makes an upper for it and Marty (last time I checked) has a 6-12 month back-log. I'd have to say its doing O.K.

The bushmaster will also go through bricks, blocks, car engines, windshields and anything in its path.
Click to expand...
If the Bushmaster will do this, then the BEO and SOCOM will do so in their sleep, since both offer a greater choice of bullets. Of course, none of the aforementioned will go through "anything in its path".

The Bushy guys (that reload) have found that they can take .458 caliber bullets and swage them down in order to have more choices. The SOCOM reloaders simply pick from the plethora of bullet choices right off the shelf. Anything from 100 grain pills (yes 100 gr.) to over 600 grs.

Anything from Tracers, to Solids, to Frangible's, to Tungsten cored, to Solid copper, to controlled expansion...and even a Barnes bullet made specifically for the cartridge (The Barnes 300 gr TTSX).

So, its hard to imagine the 450 being better in that respect.

It will take down a grizzly bear as easy as the Beowulf
Click to expand...
.
Well...I can't prove that one way or the other, but the smart money is going to go with the BEO.

Think of it as a 45/70 on steroids.
Click to expand...
NO. And thats all I will say about that, its been covered already.

Just a few commercially loaded offerings for the SOCOM:

http://www.sbrammunition.com/458sl.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#458 SOCOM ammo____-_1-2-4_8-16-32_1_16_Demand desc


For the hand loader, the door is wide open.

Now...let me conclude by saying that all three (Bushy, BEO, SOCOM) are fine big bores in their own right. Each has its place...and each is ideal (or nearly so) for different people... for different reasons.

Choose which suits you the best and be happy with it.

Flint.
 
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After checking out commercially avail ammo online just now all calibers are available but the socom is a lot higher in price. 450 avg $29 beo $30-45 and socom was $50-65 not that that means more than just that what comercial ammo cost.
 
No question... that commercially loaded SOCOM ammo is the most expensive.

If there is an Achilles Heel to the SOCOM...it is the cost of ammo.

This ain't no "plinking" round. ;)


I reload for mine...in order to take advantage of the many bullet types available. A side benefit is greatly reduced cost. Brass (because the cartridge is low pressure) lasts a long time.

For those who have "Once Fired/used" brass, you can send it to SBR, specify how you want it loaded and significantly reduce the cost of your ammo.


Flint.
 
Flintknapper wrote"

Quote:
I just wanted to show some links with some facts
Well...
I don't contest that what you linked and cut/pasted was done verbatim, but that doesn't make it "fact" in light of several variables.
Click to expand...

No verbatim. I posted something I could find quickly before I went to bed. I will look for other articles the problem is they are on papers and magazines so I will have to find them in a big pile, scan them and send them. I hope everyone there can find some more details THERE that's what I meant with the facts not to be hard driven by any ranking anyone posts here. Encyclopedias and books as well as ammo and powder manufactures specs are good sources.

For instance, you posted the following:

Quote:
The energy ranking goes as follows:
1-Beowulf ... around 3,000 ft/lb
2-450 Bushmaster ...around 2,800 ft/lb
3-Socom ...around 2,400 ft/lb

Here it seems you to seek to show the BEO as the most powerful of the three, with the Bushy second and the SOCOM third.
Click to expand...
Afirmative

Problem is: You snatched the figure for the 400 gr. load in the BEO, using a 24" barrel and compared to two completely different loads in the other two offerings.
Click to expand...
Negative, I didn't "snatch" anything. I put the numbers from the top of my head and then sent the links for people to look for facts. I will send more. I think the BEO drove a PowerBelt 245 close to 2400fps using lil'gun but I am going to verify. I think that you can get to that data form there to other sources. I will look for it and I will post it. I was going to get the BEO at that time but some of the problems in the forums influenced my decision. This is probably fixed by now... http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?899-Strange-problem-reloading-.50-Beowulf


Here are the actual figures from the links you provided:

Beo:
300 gr Speer Gold Dot 1,870 ft/s @ 2,330 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 24”)

SOCOM:
300 gr 1,900 ft/s @ 2,405 ft•lbf (Barrel length unknown)
250 gr 2,000 ft/s) @ 2,167 ft•lbf

Bushy:
250 gr SST 2,214 ft/s @ 2,722 ft•lbf (Test barrel length: 20”) Note: Not 2,800 ft.lbf

When we compare "apples to apples" as in the 300 gr. load for the BEO and the 300 gr. for the SOCOM, the SOCOM slightly bests it.

When the SOCOM 250 gr. is compared to the 250 in the Bushy, the 450 comes out ahead. I would like to point out however, that the test barrel for the Bushy was 20" and the BEO a whopping 24". The barrel length for the SOCOM is not known, but virtually EVERY bit of load data Marty (Teppo Jutsu) has sent me, has been for a 16" barrel.

So, there are variables here too. One other minor note...is that instead of rounding down 22 fps for the Bushy, you rounded UP 88 fps to arrive at 2,800 ft.lb
Click to expand...
Negative. Actually I did round it but down not up. This one I know form mine spread is 2266 with Lil'gun that puts it well over 2,800 ft/lbs if I am not mistaken.



-----------------------------------------------------

Some of the following is subjective, I understand that...and allow for some "license" to allow for hyperbole. Just the same...I have a few objections. I wouldn't normally post them, but I've literally been asked to.

Quote:
The socom is also hard to feed,
'm guessing you mean it is expensive...or that ammo is not readily available, not sure really?
Click to expand...
Both, the brass and ammo was hard to find in any store and heard many reports of actual feeding problems single stack. This might be different lately, is it?

Quote:
expensive and I don't think it will last but time only will tell.
I can only say that "expensive" must be offered up as relative to something else. For me...the expense is of no consequence...
I chose the SOCOM for other reasons.
Click to expand...
OK. Good thinking. I do not disagree with good reasons.

As for how long the cartridge will last, who knows. It has been around for quite some time now, RRA makes an upper for it and Marty (last time I checked) has a 6-12 month back-log. I'd have to say its doing O.K.

I don't know those but it is good to know so thanks for sharing this.

Quote:
The bushmaster will also go through bricks, blocks, car engines, windshields and anything in its path.
If the Bushmaster will do this, then the BEO and SOCOM will do so in their sleep, since both offer a greater choice of bullets. Of course, none of the aforementioned will go through "anything in its path".

Surely they all make BIG holes, don't they?

The Bushy guys (that reload) have found that they can take .458 caliber bullets and swage them down in order to have more choices. The SOCOM reloaders simply pick from the plethora of bullet choices right off the shelf. Anything from 100 grain pills (yes 100 gr.) to over 600 grs.

I don't swag but a friend does and he is very happy. He also swags some 450 pistol bulk pack bullets that are great for practice and very inexpensive. I cannot tell you what brand but I can ask if anyone is interested.

Anything from Tracers, to Solids, to Frangible's, to Tungsten cored, to Solid copper, to controlled expansion...and even a Barnes bullet made specifically for the cartridge (The Barnes 300 gr TTSX).
Great choice. Those TTSX are extremely deadly. Any Triple shock is a good hunting choice.

So, its hard to imagine the 450 being better in that respect.
Affirmative, Nobody said that. It comes down to choices. I was able to shoot the three of them before I got the bushmaster. and I felt the bushmaster could do what I wanted FOR ME and I saw they always had the ammo in the shelve here at the gun shop so I went for it. I think that I will go next for the BEO. Great systems, all of them.

Quote:
It will take down a grizzly bear as easy as the Beowulf
.
Well...I can't prove that one way or the other, but the smart money is going to go with the BEO. .....I cannot tell you neither but I am going to a hunt in a couple of months. Not with the bushmaster though.

Quote:
Think of it as a 45/70 on steroids.
NO. And thats all I will say about that, its been covered already.
Agree. The comparative with 45.70 standard is in another thread.

Just a few commercially loaded offerings for the SOCOM:

http://www.sbrammunition.com/458sl.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#458 SOCOM ammo____-_1-2-4_8-16-32_1_16_Demand desc

Do you know any sports stores that have these on stock or where to find the socom brass? At the time it was impossible but this might have changed.

For the hand loader, the door is wide open.

Now...let me conclude by saying that all three (Bushy, BEO, SOCOM) are fine big bores in their own right. Each has its place...and each is ideal (or nearly so) for different people... for different reasons. ....
Click to expand...
....Agree 100%

Choose which suits you the best and be happy with it.
Click to expand...

Agree. I recommend ideally and when possible connect with friends from your gun club ,shooting leagues, hunting parties, etc.. and see if anyone has a system same or similar the one you are looking for so you can give them a try with a few rounds. Offer to pay for the rounds and most people, specially friends will not have a problem. I do the same and offer a chance to friends and gun club members.

Good luck and Good night.
 
1stmarine,

I am not going to rebutt your latest reply. Quoting all the varied posts has already resulted in a deviation from the original subject matter and I would not have taken the time to address the inaccuracies of certain posts, except "inquiring minds" just had to know.

The information on each cartridge and how they compare to one another is out there for the searching. So... unless someone posts something that is patently wrong, I am loathe to attempt to correct it.

Too, I am not always right myself, but I do try to FULLY research a subject before commenting.

Anyway, thank you...for your thoughts and participation.

Flint.
 
When I looked around for my thumper AR I looked at the .450 Bushmaster,
.458 Socom and the .50 Beowulf. We can talk numbers all day but for a gun I planned on using under 200 yards only all three for any practical purpose are just as deadly. What made my final decision was the others "just ain't a .50." The decision was as simple as that.

I hand load for my Wulf and have tested a lot of bullet weights and powder loads. I have a great accurate hunting load with the .334 grain Rainier HP bullets that is devistating on deer and pigs. The load is a little slower than A.A. factory ammo but it works great and is comfortable to shoot.

No my Wulf does not shoot the same as my 45/70's (I have 2 and did not want another) but that was not what I was looking for. I love my 45/70's when I want to shoot them but that is another thing all together for me.

I think we dwell too much on the little meaningless things of 100-200fps difference or I heard you can topple a skyscraper with this caliber in one shot. In my old age just plain old "Cause I want one" factor makes most of my decisions in gun buying. I say if you really want one buy it; you will be happy with the rifle. If you are worried about what the ammo cost then all three of the big thumpers are out of your league. I have had my Wulf for a couple of years now. I have taken a lot of game with it in "Just for fun" hunting and really don't consider it a serious hunter since I do have rifles I favor as the meat getters in much lighter calibers but I still like the big bad wulf a lot!

So to the OP... Build your wulf and don't worry about the little things!
 
I don't like to repeat myself, but when the big bore threads come up I usually chime in on my experience with the 450 and 458. I have owned two of each.

I kept the 458 and felt lucky to be able to get rid of the 450s for a modest loss.

IMO the 450 is a nice cartridge, available, and not too expensive. That is why I bought two of them. I also found the cartridge to show good accuracy potential.

However the physical dimensions of the case are not well matched to the AR 556 magazine in which they are intended to be loaded. IMO the poor fit of the 450 in a 556 mag lips is absolutely Mickey Mouse, at best. I would never consider relying on it for anything even remotely important. That could change if Bush Master would make a purpose built magazine properly designed for the dimensions of their cartridge, but for me, not until then.

The cartridge is just slightly larger in diameter that the gap between the mag lips. Just barely. So in my experience with different mags, including the Bushmaster supplied mags, the lips spread so that the top cartridge was always close to popping out through the lips. With a loaded magzine, if you lightly lifted upwards on the tip of a bullet, the whole cartridge could be stood straight up and down in the magzine as the cartridge would simply slip through the mag lips as they spread apart. During shooting, I don't think any round in the magzine came to rest in the lips at exactly the same angle and elevation twice.

Additionally, the taper of the 450 cartridge body make ill suited for full mag loading in 30 round mags. The taper to the cartridge does not come close to matching the magazine curve when the cartridges are loaded inside. The more rounds that were put in a mag, the greater the problem with feed lip spreading and the top cartridge taking on a new orientation.

The 458 cartridge case is much larger in diameter so it doesn't have the problem with the mag feed lips, and the taper of the cartridge allows it to load in 30 round GI type magazines (not PMAGS).

As stated by others, the downside to the 458 is cost of loaded ammo and brass. Additionally, it would be nice if the extractor used for the 458 had a little more contact area with the rim, though I haven't heard of problems with it. Its relatively small bite can be a little rough on the cartridge rim though.

I have no experience with the Beowulf. The large case shouldn't have any problems slipping through or spreading the feed lips. However after my experiences with the 450, I would certainly investigate how well that round stacks in a full mag before buying one.
 
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I had similar problems. I got a few H&K and SIG magazines in a good deal and problem solved. They are superior also in the standard GI round.
Cheers,
E.
 
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