50BMG vs Body Armor
- Thread starter CSBOMB
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Shadow Man
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I've seen that video a few times. It is definitely not a fake, as I also saw a follow-up interview with the medic depicted there. IIRC, it was a 7.62x54R, and shattered his SAPI plate, bruising his chest. The medic can't complain, the plate did exactly what it was designed to do, and he suffered no ill effects other than a wicked bruise. He was definitely not shot with a .50 caliber weapon system though. No body armour that I am familiar with can stand up to that kind of trauma.
A .50caliber or 12.7mm rifle in the hands of the insurgents was not all that uncommon. During the buildup for Operation Al Fajar, Muslim fighters from the world over came into Iraq to take a crack at the Infidel invaders. A significant amount of Chechens were encountered, notable because they were the best trained and armed. They had been fighting the Russians for years, and had aquired some interesting bits of weaponry. Remember,the Americans are not the only military to field a rifle of that caliber, the Russians used them too, and reportedly some Chechens had them, and used them with marginal success.
The tungsten bullet bit is odd, RCmodel being correct in that a solid tungsten bullet would strip a barrel of its rifling, yet I've been around enough to trust the guy on the ground, and if Essayons21 says that it was pure tungsten and had rifling marks, then it did. Hard to say what its intended purpose was, or how it was fired. The insurgency is constantly improvising and adapting, and they recieve help from outside the country as well (EFP's from Iran, for example) so it is difficult to say with any certainty what that is all about.
A .50caliber or 12.7mm rifle in the hands of the insurgents was not all that uncommon. During the buildup for Operation Al Fajar, Muslim fighters from the world over came into Iraq to take a crack at the Infidel invaders. A significant amount of Chechens were encountered, notable because they were the best trained and armed. They had been fighting the Russians for years, and had aquired some interesting bits of weaponry. Remember,the Americans are not the only military to field a rifle of that caliber, the Russians used them too, and reportedly some Chechens had them, and used them with marginal success.
The tungsten bullet bit is odd, RCmodel being correct in that a solid tungsten bullet would strip a barrel of its rifling, yet I've been around enough to trust the guy on the ground, and if Essayons21 says that it was pure tungsten and had rifling marks, then it did. Hard to say what its intended purpose was, or how it was fired. The insurgency is constantly improvising and adapting, and they recieve help from outside the country as well (EFP's from Iran, for example) so it is difficult to say with any certainty what that is all about.
7X57chilmau
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Without weighing in on whether I believe the penetrator ever had a jacket or not..... Pure tungsten is actually not that awful hard - it can be cut with a hacksaw.... But penetrators are usually a tungsten based alloy or a carbide, much much harder....
The rifle marks on it could be scrapes on a penetrator core as it scraped thru the armour plate, or machining marks.... Or they could be rifle marks...
One lucky man wore that helmet, though. I'm sure of that
J
The rifle marks on it could be scrapes on a penetrator core as it scraped thru the armour plate, or machining marks.... Or they could be rifle marks...
One lucky man wore that helmet, though. I'm sure of that
J
TheBandit
Member
tungsten is in the hardness range of 50-60HRC. Steels in the high 50s and low 60s aren't uncommon. It is entirely possible that a "wimpy" steel barrel left rifling grooves on the "super" tungsten bullet
CSBOMB
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Here is the whole story of the medic from History Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqV_rmiSCZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqV_rmiSCZc
Sam Cade
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at 35 seconds into the above video we see an american armed with a SVD. Unexpected.
Shadow Man
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Unexpected, but not unheard of. Quite frequently, soldiers and Marines tasked with training or operating with the Iraqi forces will arm themselves accordingly. A US Army Ranger, Maj. Greene comes to mind. He used to run around the traffic circle of death with a Tobuk or FAL. Now, I don't know what the circumstances were of the soldier in the video, but it is not all that uncommon.
CSBOMB
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I was wondering what that unwieldy looking thing was (the "SVD").
LibShooter
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Actually, pure tungsten is in the same hardness range of the best (hardest) steels, so if you're committed you could build a rifle that would shoot a few tungsten bullets before the barrel is trashed. Not very practical, but possible. Maybe some of the insurgents are doing some ill-advised reloading for their stolen military guns or Barretts?
Shadow Man
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Well, unlike common conception, the insurgents are not all goatherders who live in mud huts...they can actually come up with some ingenious and deadly things. I wouldn't put it past them to get a bunch of tungsten penetrators or what have you, melt them down, and then cast a bullet.
essayons21
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There were 3 shots over a 1 week period, assumed to be from the same shooter and rifle, even though JAM was believed to have multiple 50 cal or 12.7mm rifles. All three hit the TC side of a vehicle and penetrated armor. 2/3 hit a soldier inside a vehicle. The one I posted lodged in the MICH of the TC, another lodged in the side plate of the TC.
Range was estimated to be <250 yards. Hellfire took out the suspected firing position later in the week, never heard of any more vehicles hit by large caliber rifles for the next few months of hostilities.
I posted the photo to show the penetration power of 50 caliber projectiles, especially AP ones. It was a unique circumstance, hence the importance of recovering the projectile for further analysis. I have relayed only information that I am 100% sure of, first hand. The projectile eventually made it back to CONUS, and I didn't hear anything further, and at the time didn't really care.
The insurgents, especially JAM in Baghdad/Sadr City, improvised all sorts of deadly weapons, many of which never made too much sense. EFPs that could penetrate M1 Abrams with ease, EFPs with multiple and interconnected initiation systems that used a custom built circuit board (but didn't detonate because they forgot to remove tape from one of the sensors), one IED that appeared to be designed to project liquid mercury, and a 26" diameter EFP that according to physics would have never been able to work. Glad I never found out.
Range was estimated to be <250 yards. Hellfire took out the suspected firing position later in the week, never heard of any more vehicles hit by large caliber rifles for the next few months of hostilities.
I posted the photo to show the penetration power of 50 caliber projectiles, especially AP ones. It was a unique circumstance, hence the importance of recovering the projectile for further analysis. I have relayed only information that I am 100% sure of, first hand. The projectile eventually made it back to CONUS, and I didn't hear anything further, and at the time didn't really care.
The insurgents, especially JAM in Baghdad/Sadr City, improvised all sorts of deadly weapons, many of which never made too much sense. EFPs that could penetrate M1 Abrams with ease, EFPs with multiple and interconnected initiation systems that used a custom built circuit board (but didn't detonate because they forgot to remove tape from one of the sensors), one IED that appeared to be designed to project liquid mercury, and a 26" diameter EFP that according to physics would have never been able to work. Glad I never found out.
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Wes Janson
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It's a standard .50 BMG (or potentially 12.7x109mm, were it a DShK) AP projectile with the jacket peeled off by the passage through the outer layers of armor. The color and ogive are a giveaway. Totally typical result when you fire AP into a steel target. The rifling marks are actually impressed onto the core through the jacket; the rifling compressed both jacket and core alike. And yes, the tungsten penetrator has a boattail:
627PCFan
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Im with Wes.
FWIW assuming he was "sniped" with a 50 its gonna have a brake on it (barring an insurgent having a single shot Ma Duece) and I dont know anyone who would risk running a sabot through a 50's Muzzle brake-
FWIW assuming he was "sniped" with a 50 its gonna have a brake on it (barring an insurgent having a single shot Ma Duece) and I dont know anyone who would risk running a sabot through a 50's Muzzle brake-
Hammerhead6814
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Tell your student to take a semester of physics and then try to tell you, or anyone, that someone survived a .50 Caliber round. There isn't an armored vest on the planet that could stop one. Maybe if the shooter was 2500 away or so. Just checkout the ballistics table.
Shadow Man
Member
I hate to throw a wrench in your statement Hammerhead6814, but I know of at least one person who survived a direct hit with a 12.7mm (.51 cal) bullet. Col. Charlie Beckwith. He was hit while working with project Delta (no, not Delta Force ) during Vietnam. I'm unsure of the range, but he was hit in the abdomen, had no protective vest of any kind on, and lived to tell the tale.
Granted, the odds are slim, but the impossible does, sometimes, happen. That's war for you.
And at 2500 yards...the target would have to be wearing the vest on his head, the bullet's trajectory would mean that it would be coming nearly straight down...
) during Vietnam. I'm unsure of the range, but he was hit in the abdomen, had no protective vest of any kind on, and lived to tell the tale.Granted, the odds are slim, but the impossible does, sometimes, happen. That's war for you.
And at 2500 yards...the target would have to be wearing the vest on his head, the bullet's trajectory would mean that it would be coming nearly straight down...
Well , couldn't measure the distance, but a documented case of a NVA equivalence of the 50 went through the front of a Charlie Model Huey, and lodged in the chicken plate of the pilot. documented, photographed, writen up and verified. 1966.
One of my students swears that he has seen a video of a US Marine being hit by a 50BMG round and surviving...not only surviving but getting back up off the ground.
Is there ANY Body Armor that could not only prevent the round from penetrating...but somehow, magically dissipate enough energy to keep every bone from being crushed and every internal organ from being turned into jelly?
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.50 bmg carries something on the order of 15 thousand lbs of striking energy at the muzzle , three times that of .458 mag.
Not a chance.
Is there ANY Body Armor that could not only prevent the round from penetrating...but somehow, magically dissipate enough energy to keep every bone from being crushed and every internal organ from being turned into jelly?
__________________
.50 bmg carries something on the order of 15 thousand lbs of striking energy at the muzzle , three times that of .458 mag.
Not a chance.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
I must be less of a man..... But I really dont think I could work to save the POS that just tried really hard to kill me.
Our guys have some very big brass ones knocking around....
Our guys have some very big brass ones knocking around....
HorseSoldier
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At one point the US military was working on a SAPI-type plate that could take .50BMG and 12.7mm hits for use by aviators but I don't think it was ever practical with the technology available, and definitely isn't what the guy in the video clip is wearing (the posters who noted he's hit COM with 7.62x54 are correct).
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