6.5 grendel is now officially saami cartridge

Status
Not open for further replies.

Boanerges57

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
85
Location
Wisconsin
I was iver in alexander arms website. They have announced that they have relinquished their trademark. The round has been formally recognised by saami. Now the 6.5 sporter and 6.5 lbc can admit to being 6.5 grendel in disguise. Hopefully this might drive prices down slightly.
 
I have been shooting both and the LBC is slightly more accurate. I think that the small difference in the throat it makes it a better chamber.
Cheers.
E.
 
Wolf is also gearing up to make steel 6.5x38 ammo, along with Izmash potentially releasing a 6.5x38 Saiga.

Wolf's ammo should be on shelves Q1-2012, projected price point is on par with their steel .223 offerings.

I guess it helps that 7.62x39 is the parent case for 6.5x38 :cool:.
 
Sweet! I've never actually shot a 6.5 Grendel but its looks amazing on paper. If it comes down in price I would love to have a 6.5 AR upper.
 
The Grendel and LBC are great cases but there is no hope for a miracle here. I think that one of the attractiveness comes form the AR by being able to shoot from standard magazines. Also from the combination of an inherently accurate system plus an inherently accurate cartridge.
That is great for those purposes and also if this is to be used by high volume magazines but for those that simply want to shoot a 6.5 even from other small cases still decent volume there are other better choices and super accurate too.
I have tried everything with the Grendel loads and I think the advertised numbers from Bill Alexander were way too optimistic. Many others report the same issues.
I do not see many reasons for a 24" saiga when we know the long barrels do not give great reports in those systems, specially with the amazingly reliable, versatile and accurate saiga 16" carbine in 308 winchester.

But I get it! I am addicted to 6.5mm too.So you cannot say you don't want to try more candy. LOL!
 
Are you kidding me? I waited over a year and finally gave up and bought a 6.8 barrel last week. Oh well, the difference is so slight I suppose a novice shooter like myself wouldn't even notice.
 
FINALLY! It took them losing all their vendors. And it wasn't Bill A. holding out, it was his investor that had control and didn't understand anything about the firearms industry. They had some of the best vendors too... Satern made barrels for them, they even made a fluted stainless 14.5" with built in flash suppressor, REALLY nice, and only 1.1lb! I got one of the last barrels they made before they quit, a 20". Now I can get another one from them... Awesome. Before you think of me as an AA fanboy reading this, know I'm a self described AR fanboy in general I guess, this round (and his Beowulf) just iced the cake as it were.

This round performs in the field as it does on paper. As far as I'm concerned, Alexander Arms has done things to maximize the potential of this platform like no other, and they sell quality and accurate gear. I tested out the .50 Beowulf in 16" for them and for my unit and showed it off to the War College in a demonstration. Pretty awesome indeed, that round is spectacular and transforms the AR into a different beast altogether, like a high velocity and capacity AR based slug gun, with a 200m range and phenomenal accuracy (1-2MOA at 100m). Hits like a sledgehammer.

Now the Grendel... I just recently built mine "from scratch", meaning I assembled everything, every individual part. I got a 20" Satern barrel, also came with bolt; you really want a good quality barrel for this round and platform, so choose the maker carefully. I'd always wanted a Satern and here was a perfect opportunity. 14.5-24 inches is recommended. You don't gain a lot from adding length, so if you want short, get short; if you don't mind the length and want the velocity, get the 24". For me however, the 20" was just perfect for what I wanted to do: build the perfect SDM rifle I never had in the army.

So I got a matched upper and lower receiver, I used Aero Precision for this particular one, and matched them myself out of a bunch. I used DPMS parts for the upper and lower small parts (though now I've found JP Ent. is MUCH higher in quality for similar price and they sell a lower parts kit without the trigger, I'll use these from now on) and a JP Ent. "Tactical" bolt carrier. Finest bolt carrier I've ever used, and I'll stick with these in the future too, just the best I've ever seen --I could write a paragraph on it easily-- tight, slick, smooth with no machine marks, polished and treated. I used mil parts, an A2 buttstock and grip, and a Knights Arm. FF rail, the rifle length (these are really nice, I have them on a couple AR's and are my favorite rail tube). The flash suppressor is an AAC Blackout suppressor mount, it has absolutely zero flash at night (but twangs when it fires) and it has an adj. gas block, which is real nice to have on this paricular round, consider this highly. The trigger is a polished RRA 2 stage, as nice as the Geissele as far as I can tell once worked, and scoped with a TA01B ACOG, the .308 stadia version. The rifle cost around $1200 minus scope best I can tell, I already had the trigger, but it is one fine piece of equipment that you cannot buy built. I've already gotten sub-MOA groups with it using 100gr. AMAX handloads. I haven't worked up a whole lot of loads yet, only the 123gr. SMK and 100gr. AMAX, 120 BT up next. I get around 1MOA with the SMK and 1/2MOA with the 100gr. AMAX. I expect I'll eventually get 1/4MOA groupings from this rifle using the AMAX once the load is tailored, but I'm happy with 1/2MOA. There is a steel plate at my range, it is about the size of a skillet and at 200y. I can ring that plate rapid fire from the bipod, almost boringly. I can get it swinging pretty hard, nailing it on the backswing and getting it to swing back and forth violently. Worth mentioning is that the 5.56 won't do this. It'll ding it hard and swing the plate, but not like this, these are 100gr. bullets going 2800fps. Haven't been able to stretch its legs yet at 600m, but that'll come soon enough... I'd like to try it at 1000m too.

The Grendel, in just over 200 rounds, has already become my favorite round. This is my favorite rifle, and it is everything I wanted it to be, too bad I didn't have it in the army. The only things I'd do differently is use Noveske for the receivers, those are better, and the JP Ent. lower parts kit and foward assist assy. They make really great parts, period. I also would have put a better scope on it than the ACOG --this rifle could actually benefit from a quality 6x optic, although the ACOG is nice and having one laying around helps.

This is the best way to put together a Grendel for use as an SDM-R, so what you plan on using it for dictates the build (although mine is just a range rifle, I'm not in the army anymore but I still like messing with accurized battle and assault rifles, in particular SDM-Rifles). The cheapest? Well, I already have the gear to build AR's, and I built a rifle as good or better, in my opinion, as a rifle that sells for twice what I paid to build this one. You could go cheaper, just use mil spec parts, all standard stuff, and only splurge on the trigger and the barrel. I'd also free float this one no matter what --if no FF, I wouldn't be able to get 1/2MOA, when you have a rifle that shoots sub-MOA, things like that count more than when dealing with a 2-3MOA rifle.

If you don't have the gear to build AR's from parts, then I'd recommend getting a built lower in the style you like, a two stage trigger would be nice, and then get an upper from Alexander Arms. They run sales from time to time, sign up and be patient... Then get the one you desire, preferably free floating, definitely with a quality barrel. Cut rifling is prefered, but there are phenomenal button rifled barrels out there too.

Long winded, but I hope that helps some, that is my build and experience anyway. I can't say enough good about it. Awesome round indeed, a truly accurate and powerful round for this platform for sure. I use 26rd. mags, stainless, blue follower. I have them from two manufacturers, but they both have the same blue follower that says "6.5Grendel". I have no feeding problems at all, and the rifle as a whole is still breaking in really, just over 200rds.
 
Help me out a little bit here guys. What TO YOU makes this cartridge worth having? It's an odd ball but then I'm not opposed to one or two odd balls in the safe given some ballistic proficiency not easily obtained elsewhere. I like the 6.8 SPC and I have a couple. I have a few 5.56 outfits and I like them too. Most of my stuff is AR-15 and I just can't seem to have enough of them. As I look at load data for the 6.5 G. I see less potential than the 6.8 considering the 6.8's ability to fire 130 or 140 grain hunting bullets at 2400 FPM and down to 85 grain varmint bullets at 3000 easily. Bullets and brass is easy to find for the 6.8 too. Do I not have the range covered?
What am I missing here? I was planning to put together another AR in .243 WSSM. Should I reconsider? Change my mind. :)
Thanks,
 
Help me out a little bit here guys. What TO YOU makes this cartridge worth having? It's an odd ball but then I'm not opposed to one or two odd balls in the safe given some ballistic proficiency not easily obtained elsewhere. I like the 6.8 SPC and I have a couple. I have a few 5.56 outfits and I like them too. Most of my stuff is AR-15 and I just can't seem to have enough of them. As I look at load data for the 6.5 G. I see less potential than the 6.8 considering the 6.8's ability to fire 130 or 140 grain hunting bullets at 2400 FPM and down to 85 grain varmint bullets at 3000 easily. Bullets and brass is easy to find for the 6.8 too. Do I not have the range covered?
What am I missing here? I was planning to put together another AR in .243 WSSM. Should I reconsider? Change my mind. :)
Thanks,
Well, not trying to change your mind. You need to build the rifle that you want.

The 6.5 vs. 6.8... It really comes down to the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. The 6.5 bullet just retains energy far longer downrange; due to this, it retains more velocity has less drop, and thus is more accurate at distance.

Grendel does what 6.8 does and then some... If you are talking inside of 300m, I suppose one is as good as another. If you are talking 600-1000m, Grendel hands down. Due to size and weight, and the capacity, I'd even choose the Grendel over a 7.62 AR or similar given the choice in a life or death situation.

The 100gr. AMAX, I get 2800fps at the muzzle with a near max load. Hoping to get some better data now that it is an "official" cartridge. The bullets range, at the time, from 95gr. to 140gr., although there will probably be more lighter bullets coming out. The 6.5 is traditionally a longer cartridge and thus heavier bullets (the heavier they get in 6.5 the higher the BC obviously, so the .260, 6.5Creedmore, etc., have even more potential at range) but the Grendel is the reason Hornady introduced the new 100gr. AMAX.

This round is also the handloader's cartridge, it is expensive loaded, hard to find, not many people make it. But that'll change now that they've relenquished their patent. If you handload, this is a better round, if you depend on factory ammo, you might want to skip past the Grendel. Get a .308 platform AR, but chambered in .260 or similar instead.

Finally, I too have a bunch of AR's and I'm building a .300BLK next. After that, a 6mmAR and then probably a NM rifle or space gun. But of all the ones I have and all the ones I've shot, the Grendel is my favorite already. It was everything *I* wanted, everything I was looking for.

I'd get a 6.8 too, even though it won't do all the Grendel will, if they ever settle on a chambering, and if I didn't have to do all new mags again (had to do that with the Grendel).
 
The only reason I hadn't decided to get one already was because Alexander Arms controlled the patent. Now that they relinquished it, I will probably get one as soon as I get some coin.
 
Have a look at the attached. (if I did it right)
I ran several scenarios and the difference look slim to me.
 

Attachments

  • 6.8 to 6.5 .jpg
    6.8 to 6.5 .jpg
    121.4 KB · Views: 30
Talk to the guy you see in the mirror and ask him these simple questions...

A) What is the main purpose or couple of purposes for my rifle (lets assume you want more performance than the 5.56 that is ok for many purposes but this is not the subject here).

B) What is/are the bullet/s needed for that purposes? Think about a small assortment that will fulfill those roles.

C) What are the best candidate cases for my purpose taking into account high capacity magazines? Do I really need large count rounds and high capacity magazines? This is hardly the case for hunting or even the bench.

D) Is cost of ammo a factor in my practice? One gets good with practice. There is nothing worse than buying a rifle that one cannot shoot often due to the cost issue. Lets not even factor the cost of the barrels that should be good quality with a decent accuracy life for this round and in many cases the cost of good quality training that is often overlooked and mandatory if one is serious about getting good at marksmanship.

E) Do I feel under pressure to get a specific round? Sometimes peer pressure, fashion, the internet, etc... Try it first if you can and see for yourself if it is something you would like.

If you think about the above you will not be doing like me and end up with dozens of rifles that I do not shoot anymore! LOL!!!
 
Stack,
Those might be 6.8 SpecII loads right?
Mang that is hard to read but I think you got that right. So if I try to translate what you say in plain terms maybe the 6.8 is good for a do it all, do it pretty well to moderate range with manageable barrels 16"-18" including hunting, HD, etc...
The Grendel/LBC will do that too but ideally you might want to dedicate to a Long Barrel 24" lets say for long range where one can take advantage of the high BC bullets like the 123gr hornady and lapua scenar.

I have been shooting both and that is one intended use I see. The 6.8spcII is hard to beat to pop pigs and deer although I have used mostly the 6x45 and 7.62x39 with equally great success. Even the 5.56 with the Barnes 70gr TSX is lethal but for whatever inexplicable reason in some states/counties not legal for deer or black bear.
 
Good advise 1stMarine but somehow having dozens of rifles just does not sound like such a torture to me :)
 
What is the cheapest/best way to put together a Grendel upper?
I am afraid that cheapest and best do not go together with almost any firearm specially if you like that one for its accuracy like the grendel.
The external brands do not matter that much but a more rigid match billet will give you the edge. Many options but initially I would concentrate in a few and most critical components of the upper:
- A nice match grade barrel. I have been very lucky with Lothar Walter / LW50.
- A nice BCG with a nice strong bolt
- A nice matched billet
-A nice gas block (clamp, not set screw) with a properly gassed system
- A nice trigger is a must and a 2 stage NM will do fine.
- A good scope
- Good Ergonomics.

I recommend the LBC chamber vs. Grendel. I have both and the LesBaers neck is a better shooter.
Everything else is really what feels good to you.
 
It's about dang time...I just have to wonder if it's too little, too late. Hopefully others will start tooling up and chambering it in new rifles, but I honestly doubt it will become nearly as popular as the 6.8SPC (which isn't notably popular itself).

:)
 
Maverick, you are right... probably... when you make it widely available is not so exclusive anymore so people will look into something else.
I love 6.5 so I am looking into a new wildcat that is going to make the 2800 fps out of the 20" AR-15 barrel with a 6.5mm 123gr bullet. I am very close to completion so I figured this is all I need between the 6.5, 6.8 and the Knights 308 AR based uppers.
I am going to sell my Grendel one so if anyone is interested let me know.
 
For paper punching there are better bullet choices in 6.5mm than in 6.8mm. In a practical sense it probably doesn't matter. In a short/medium range hunting situation it's probably a slight nod to the 6.8. So what do you want to do? If you want to blast something bigger than a .223 out of an AR, I'd go with the one which you can find cheaper ammo. For a hunter, I'd probably opt for a little more bullet diameter. For target shooting, I'd probably go 6.5 and take the slightly better ballistics. They aren't a huge jump one way to the other. I've always been a bit more of a paper shooter than anything else so I've been drawn in to the 6.5 grendel and 6.5 in general for a while. That said, I can see why others would go a different route.
 
I didn't buy into the 6.5G for some specific reasons. It goes back to what ranges and targets are involved. I was going to build an AR for deer hunting. That meant engaging LIVE targets out to 300m, and needing good terminal performance.

First, the 6.5G doesn't really have much to offer under 300m. To get the energy it retains at long distances, you have to actually shoot long distances. That's OVER 300m shooting, and it's not the typical shot for whitetail in woodland edges. The heavier bullet is nice for retaining more energy, but has more drop. Under 300m, it's likely moot, but lighter bullets allow longer pointblank ranges that don't need holdover. The lighter bullets in 6.8, which are nearly ALL hunting designs, would then be preferred.

Another factor is the cartridge design: 6.5G is based on the 6mm PPC precision target cartridge. That's been designed for decades to provide the maximum powder capacity case with a long bullet to maximize ballistic coefficient. It is loaded with slower powders that need more barrel length to optimize the highest speeds. Those are over 20", and in a deer rifle held in the hands working thru brush and timber, not the best combination. In the AR, a 16" barrel does just fine for shooting under 300m.

That's where the 6.8PC was specifically designed and optimized - in fact, it was for use in military 14.5" barrels, which are largely NFA items to us. The 6.8SPC gets more than a "nod" ballistically in that regard, it's numerically and ballistically superior in even shorter barrels. Not the province of long range precision shooters, that superior performance is glossed over to promote the paper punching agenda they prefer.

As a specific result, the facts are that hunters are buying 6.8SPC ten to one over the 6.5G. It really had very little to do with SAMMI, the specs for the 6.8 weren't adopted correctly, but it took off in spite of the error, not because it was approved. The majority of 6.8's actually sold are in the SPCII specification, which is NOT SAMMI. So much for needing industry approval.

Will it benefit 6.5G to have SAMMI approval? I think the shooting public already voted with their dollars, and will continue to do so. In this case a head to head comparison of the market doesn't show it made any difference, neither had it, and the AR hunting community spent money for the one they choose as more effective - on live game.

Paper? Frankly, the National Match is all about 5.56, and the bias for military surplus gives it the edge there, and out shooting dirt. You can get 5.56 in brass for less than $6/20, and steel as low as $4.25/20. Alternate caliber ammo for $10 or $12 is pricey, the same problem .300BO faces.

There has to be a point for the cartridge to exist, and long barreled precision shooting is what the 6.5G was designed to do, and what it does best. Having SAMMI approval isn't going to be much influence, other than some makers will adopt the name and get a few more sales inquiry because Google will tap their website now.
 
I guess it an each to his own. I like my Grendel, I run 129 grain SST's out of mine and all the LIVE game I point it at falls down in a rapid rock dropping fashion. I have yet to take a deer with it but I have dropped several hogs which tend to be a little tougher than deer. granted with the heavier bullets and since I am shooting under 300 yards there are probably other similar calibers that do just as well but I am very happy with it.
 
Any of the popular AR-15 cartriges might not the best 'all around options' for 'all sort of hunting'. We like them because we love the ARs and we are willing to trade off the little real state in magazine for its accuracy, modularity and overall versatility.
That is why we do not see many of the AR calibers becoming very popular in the bolt action hunting department. The 5.56 is a little bit the exception for varmints as it is affordable for training and does a pretty decent job with varmints and white tail at moderate ranages and where allowed.
At the same time the modularity of the platform allow for quick upper change and one can go from a 5.56. to a 450 thumper in 30 seconds.
Now with all that said, I think many of the popular options provide adequate performance in many average hunting situations and one has to be wise selecting the best bullet that fills the desired role and with it the needed cartridge.
The reality is that the 6.5G/LBC case has been a great development that enjoys some of the advantages and accuracy of the venerable .220 Russian but it also carries one of the original limitations like its limiting operating pressure. This is something very important in the AR platform.
The 6.8SPC presented a clear advantage but originally suffered a little from this same ailment leading to the creation of new chamber dimensions with the SPCII and DMR, IMO this last one, being the best.
A 6.8SPC works great with short barrels but also a 20" 6.8SPC DMR can put a 110gr bullet at 2900fps+ and a 80gr Speer at 3400fps+. making a very attractive all around cartridge.
The 6.8 bullets have not the greatest Ballistics coeficients but they are more than adequate, specially with some of the newer 110 and 115grain bullets.
IF we take Bill Allexander's words of start slow and end fast, we could apply this to almost any caliber and even in the 6.8SPC we could launch a 120gr bullet with a G1 of 0.460 at very decent speeds making this another great alternative for longer ranges and w/o the need to go longer than 20" unlike the grendel. The PRI magazines accepts 2.315 COAL giving room to launch one of those 120grs at 2550fps. This offers amazing performance with reasonable barrel length without steeping into the red. The longer leade offers clear advantages like demonstrated in military chambers. Accuracy is also very good.
In my opinion if one needs more power should consider the AR-10 or even one of the AR-15 lower-round-count-per-magazine options. In any case whether is practice or hunting we hardly need a bulky high capacity nor this will be allowed for hunting in many places anyway.
In this case I think the 30RAR offers a great option for big game hunting using the 150gr bullet loads. If one doesn't like any of the WSSMs or alternatives there is also the Bench Rest alternative.
For my taste there are very few things a simple 6x45 or a 6.8 cannot do for every day hunting w/o the need to go to the 308, unless one is looking to maximize subsonic capabilities. If more power is needed some of the other alternatives could be attractive everything from thumping to long range hunting, with some limitations on size of game.
And keep in mind, many times less is more. Choose accuracy over raw uncontrollable power.
 
Last edited:
Just fyi. Steel case wolf in 6.5 grendel was recently used in the thousands at a local shoot with Bill A. Apparently it is due to hit our shores soon and it will be priced similar to 7.62x39.
 
Thanks for the info.
I see some value but I cannot make any steel case to shoot any better than some good old brass and I cannot buy it cheaper than reloads.
I have tried loading steel myself in the past and nothing good came out of this.
If steel was any better you will have it already in all sort of competitions even Bench Rest. Lapua would be selling 'match' steel.
It is simply cheaper for the masses and the one time use folks.
For the rest there is no benefit. ...maybe when we go into the woods plinking and do not want to be collecting brass from the leaves and mud all over.
Hornady and some others trying to sell EXPENSIVE Match steel cases is a joke. It is almost like those folks comparing the 7.62x39 with the 30-30. They never bothered to even look at the numbers. I love AKs but one needs to be a little realistic.
Rifle and ammo manufactures come up with all sort of schemes to make look the 'cheaper' stuff the better stuff, the "new wave", the stuff we need.
In reality it is neither cheaper or better.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top