I shoot a model 94 Swedish mauser with the 17.5 inch barrel so bullet speeds are slow.
Hornady lists 44 grains IMR 4350 with their 140 grain bullet as Max load. Everyone else lists 45 grains of the same powder and bullet weight as Max. Is Hornady just cautious or is their bullet bearing surface and jacket material different?
Has anyone dropped down to the 129 grain Hornady or 120 Nosler BT for deer? Speeds with the 120 grain at full load probably won't exceed 2600fps by much.
Your rifle is exactly why American ammunition manufacturer's and Reloading manuals have to keep pressures down on this great cartridge. Your M1894 carbine (which I assume is what you have) was built from 1895 to 1918. As a rule, the older the rifle, the less certain the metallurgy. It is worth looking at the
CHRONOLOGICAL HISTORY OF CODES AND STANDARDS FOR STANDARDIZATION & TESTING DEPARTMENT https://cstools.asme.org/csconnect/FileUpload.cfm?View=yes&ID=32642 for an idea of how immature metal technology was in the pre vacuum tube era. Defining technological advancement is basically a guess, there is not a list of which industries, which factories incorporated advancing technologies. You can make a general assessment based on “everything”, an assessment which is not going to be very accurate or precise. Basically I consider the “pre vacuum tube era” to be up to the early part of the 1920’s. The closer you get to WW2 the better the manufacturing technology, assuming factories adopted improvements, such as electricity and vacuum tube based process control equipment. And that is not a given. I would say based on the technology of the era and the funding of the age, that rifles made in the 1930’s should have cleaner steels and should be made with more advanced manufacturing technology than previous decades. All of this is theoretical sophistry, someone would have to go out and test individual receivers for materials and grain structure to see if Quality Control had improved as you would expect as technology improved. Advancements in the Government sector are not linear, they are quantum.
I have seen nothing to indicate that the Swedes or anyone else building military Mauser actions built these military actions to a higher pressure standard than their service cartridge. For 8mm Mausers, the average pressure did rise by a couple of thousands from WW1 to WW2, that may have been because the Military was willing to accept a reduced service life, or that they thought improved production processes produced a cleaner steel. We do know from historical records lugs cracked on new service rifles.
Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 Dieter writes that the bolt lugs broke on 1:1000 of GEW98 service rifles used by the Bavarian Army Corp! This was when the cartridge pressure was 43,000 psia.
There is evidence of what happens to old WW1 Mauser made receivers when chambered for inappropriate cartridges as can be seen in the lug set back in this Argentine 1909 action.
Advice for re-heat treating Zastava Mausers.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4142510/1
The actions used in sporters are often 60,000 psia cartridges, and there is absolutely no evidence that these Swedish Mausers were ever built to this standard. Especially a Swedish Mauser pre dating 1918. The experience of our all wise and all knowing in print gunwriters is worth repeating. They had lug set back with their new Mauser M98 military actions chambering in modern cartridges.
Want to build a 6.5x55 swede.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/want-to-build-a-6-5x55-swede.740414/
JayPee
I would strongly recommend using a very strong commercial action if you intend to exceed military pressures in your loads. Military M98 Mausers can have their own set of disappointments. First among them is the fact that their original cartridge, the 8mm Mauser cartridge, dissipates pressure faster than any known cartridge, and once manufacturers discovered this they decided to reduce costs by reducing the degree of heat treatment of the action - thus you can get the exact same fatal setback problem in an M98 as you get in the Swede actions. Outdoor Life's shooting editor, Jim Carmichael, once wrote in one of his books that he and a friend had purchased a number of brand new military Mauser M98 actions, and upon barreling them for cartridges such as the .270 Winchester, they all developed a catastrophic degree of excessive headspace because the actions had only been heat treated to withstand 8mm Mauser pressures - all were ruined. Thus, back in the heyday of military conversions, the 50's, 60's, and 70's, the experts always advised that before using a military M98 action as the basis for an expensive sporting rifle, the shooter should first have the action tested for Rockwell hardness. That is still awfully good advice in my book if you insist on using a military M98 action. Hope this helps.
What we do know from historical records is that the Swedish military ammunition was loaded to 320 MPa (46,412 psi) piezo pressure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5×55mm Your rifle, particularly being a pre WW1 action is subject to all the uncertainty of something built in a pre vacuum tube era with pre vacuum tube process controls.
The M94 and M96 actions don't have a safety lug. If the lugs crack, through metal fatigue, there is the real risk the bolt will be blown out of the action. Plain carbon steel has a habit of breaking without warning. And there is a record of Swedish lugs breaking and killing people:
Catastrophic Failure - Swedish Mauser m/1896
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?106437-Catastrophic-Failure-Swedish-Mauser-m-1896
I don't remember if I ever posted these photos in this forum but with the other topic of the Spanish 1916 catastrophic failure
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34549 coming up I thought it might be a good idea to have this as a separate subject.
The difference between the Spanish 1916 failure and this Swedish Mauser is we know exactly what caused the Swede to come apart. It was a double charge of fast pistol powder. The rifle resides in the UK so these photos were obtained for me by another very knowledgeable Swede collector who's USAF duty station is in the UK.
The Mauser m/1896 was taken out of general military service in Sweden some 12-15 years ago due to a bolt lug failure killing a young Swedish soldier. There are some m/94 carbines in use by the Livguard who has duty at the royal palace in Stockholm and their rifles are carried locked and loaded so they are not ceremonial. Swedish Mausers do fail in normal use many times for reasons that are not obvious. I would prefer to urge caution and care when handloading or shooting rifles that are 100+ years old. Metal fatigue is cumulative. If you feel the need to hotrod a Mauser do it with a 98 action.
Sheared Bolt Lugs - Swedish Mauser
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34532-Sheared-Bolt-Lugs-Swedish-Mauser
m/1896 Swedish Mauser in Australia. Details of failure unknown to me.
Those of you with metallurgical experience are most welcome to comment... though I know its hard to make a definitive statement based on such limited information.
As with the 1893 Mauser photos I post these photos to illuminate the reality that seemingly strong and sound rifles suffer catastrophic failures and sometimes people are killed as a result. What exactly caused this incident, had it killed the shooter, would be immaterial to his widow and children. Dead is dead.
So, are you scared? Maybe enough to be happy to keep your loads service rifle equivalent? My advice is to keep to Swedish service rifle ammunition pressures and not try to magnumtize the cartridge. At least not in your rifle, a pre WW1 artifact. Based on a 1950's American Rifleman article on the 6.5 Swede, it was stated that 43.0 grs of IMR 4350 with a 140 (or 139.5 grain bullet) was the pressure and velocity equivalent of the Swedish Service rifle load. And you, with your antique, should not be trying to exceed that.
I have chronographed Swedish ball, and these are the Swedish ball velocities in several Swedish service rifles:
Code:
M1896 Infantry Rifle 29' barrel Carl Gustafs mfgr 1903
17-Aug-06 T = 85 °F
143 gr FMJ 1986 Swedish Ball
Ave Vel = 2610
Std Dev = 14.38
ES = 45.59
High = 2633
Low = 2587
N = 8
M38 Infantry Carbine 24" barrel
28-Oct-94 T ≈ 60 °F
143 gr 1986 Swedish Ball OAL 3.065" 47.4 grs powder average
Ave Vel = 2427
STD=22
ES = 62
Low = 2395
High = 2457
N = 10
Because I have a couple of modern rifles, I can push the pressures and velocities above that of a Swedish service rifle. I don't really know what I am accomplishing as a 140 grain bullet at Swedish service rifle velocities is accurate all the way out to 300 yards, which is as far as I zero'd these rifles. Based on velocity alone, I would say 43.0 grains IMR 4350, or AA4350, is a ball equivalent load with a 140 grain bullet. What I found surprising, was the consistently slower velocities I received out of this 22 inch M700 barrel with the same ammunition, shot on the same day, as the M70 Winchester. Obviously, something is different between these rifles, and it is something I can't detect with my equipment. Nor, am I going to try.
Code:
M700 22" Barrel
143 gr Swedish Ball 1986 headstamp
2 Feb 2008 T = 54 °F
Ave Vel =2470
Std Dev =18
ES =48
High =2491
Low =2443
N =5
140 gr Hornady Spire Point 43.0 grs AA4350 R-P new brass CCI-200 OAL 2.990"
2 Feb 2008 T = 52 °F
Ave Vel = 2512
Std Dev = 27
ES = 72
High = 2547
Low = 2475
N = 5
140 gr Hornady Spire Point (0.264") 43.0 grs AA4350 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 2.990" loaded 2-5-2000
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel =2531
Std Dev =14
ES =33
High =2540
Low =2507
N=5
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 2-22-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2548
Std Dev =11
ES =28
High =2566
Low =2538
N =5
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs H4831 wtd lot 01-06-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2419
Std Dev = 31
ES = 88
High = 2477
Low = 2389
N = 8
Shot an internet bragging sub MOA group with three shots. Too bad three shots proves absolutely nothing in terms of inherent accuracy:
I really think the four shot group is a better indication of the accuracy potential of this load, but, the fifth shot went out of the ten ring. This is proof that if you want to claim sub MOA accuracy, shoot as few shots as possible. This is something in-print gunwriters do all the time. Makes them and their loads look good.
This load is probably a little too hot for a Swedish service rifle, given the velocity is above what I received with a service load. However, IMR 4831 looks to be a real champ in this cartridge. This is at 300 yards, and I think a sub 5 inch ten shot group at 400 yards is pretty darn good for a sporter rifle.
Code:
M70 Featherweight 22" Barrel
143.5 gr FMJBT Swedish 1986 ball. OAL 3.065" 47.4 grs powder average
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2460
Std Dev = 21
ES = 30
High = 2474
Low = 2444
N = 5
Very good group
140 gr Hornady Spire Point 43.0 grs AA4350 R-P new brass CCI-200 OAL 2.990"
18 Nov 2007 T = 75 °F
Ave Vel =2428
Std Dev =29
ES =95
High =2480
Low =2385
N =24
easy bolt life,nice rounded primers
140 gr Hornady Spire Point 43.0 grs AA4350 R-P new brass CCI-200 OAL 2.990"
18 Nov 2007 T = 75 °F
Ave Vel = 2428
Std Dev = 29
ES = 95
High = 2480
Low = 2385
N = 24
easy bolt life, nice rounded primers
140 gr Hornady Spire Point (0.264") 43.0 grs AA4350 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 2.990"
loaded 2-2000
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2387
Std Dev = 23
ES = 67
High = 2424
Low = 2357
N = 15
Best group of all reloads
140 gr Hornady Spire Point Flat Base (0.264") 43.0 grs AA4350 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 2.990" loaded 2-5-2000
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2413
Std Dev = 17
ES = 50
High = 2441
Low = 2391
N = 6
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 2-22-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2419
Std Dev = 19
ES = 43
High = 2439
Low = 2396
N = 5
140 gr Sierra Matchking greased 45.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 2-22-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2438
Std Dev = 12
ES = 30
High = 2448
Low = 2418
N = 5
140 gr Hornady SP (0.264") greased 47.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 282 NNY cases Fed 210S OAL 3.050"
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2633
Std Dev = 24
ES = 81
High = 2680
Low = 2599
N = 10
140 gr Hornady SP (0.264") greased 48.0 grs IMR 4831 wtd lot 282 NNY cases Fed 210S OAL 3.050"
13 Oct 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2688
Std Dev = 16
ES = 44
High = 2705
Low = 2661
N = 10
Overmax load, primer cupping around firing pin, shiny rub marks on case heads
140 gr Hornady SP greased 45.0 grs H4831 wtd lot 01-06-2014 new R-P cases CCI 200 OAL 3.065"
2 Nov 2017 T=72 °F
Ave Vel = 2289
Std Dev = 9
ES = 16
High = 2296
Low = 2280
N = 5
200 Yards, five shot group
300 yards, group shot for size. I am reluctant to touch the elevation and windage knobs of a typical hunting scope once I get going for group size. Target scopes are more reliable, the expensive ones usually (remember usually) move a click when you put on a click. One hunting scope, the group may move a click, or two, or not at all, and then jump four clicks later. Still, a ten shot group 6.6" at 300 yards is not bad for a Featherweight. These are not target rifles.
I forgot to take the five shot group, but it was 4.5" at 300 yards. I don't know the velocity in this rifle.