64% of Americans Support NSA Intercepts

[Wllm. Legrand]

Exactly who has been tortured?

You are obviously someone for whom keeping up with the news is not a priority.

If you can't or won't do your homework to keep informed (which describes 85% of the American people, of whom 49% of the aggregate are below average intelligence) I won't do it for you.

Read more. There is more going on than you read in your paper and get from Sean Hannity.

 

[Kiwi98J]

Just caught a guy on the news explaining why they don't use the after the fact warrants.

Even though a warrant is granted any info on US citizens is removed from the reports given to the FBI.

So the NSA listens in on Osama Bin Laden talking with Usa Terrorist about the next event in the USA.

The NSA gets the retroactive warrant.

They pass along the info to the FBI minus any info on the US citizen. No name, phone number or any parts of the conversation spoken by the US citizen. They can hand over half the info they gathered and anything after the warrant was issued.

If this is true then it sounds like the FISA rules need to be changed to allow the proper flow of intel.

The statement is not true. All data from signals emminating from inside the US is stripped of identifying info only if NSA (actually it's the Sec of Defense) does not find the data is "of foreign intelligence interest" and "probable cause" is lacking. "Of foreign intelligence interest" means, foreign power, a foreign agent, a terrorist, aiding and abetting, etc. If NSA meets the threshold and gets the warrant, they continue collection for 45 days until the need is determined if they need to extend the collection interest.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Wow.

I always figured the 3rd building fell down because two of the largest buildings ever built fell down next to it ... and that all that material falling into their foundation, on the edge of an island, might somehow affect nearby buildings.

Was the 3rd building knocked down by the oil companies?

Absolutley not. Wasn't hit by debris. Look at the maps. Look at the photos and clips.

I have some..."small knowledge" of phsyics. It is easier to accept the big lies than the multitude of small ones. I spent some time looking into it, after scoffing at those who asserted inconsistencies, they must be fools to question the official line.. I apologized afterwards.

 

[GoRon]

Where does that line of reasoning come from?

Reading some of the posts on this site you would think it is a fait accompli that the Bush administration is guilty of domestic spying without a warrant or appropriate oversight.

All the bloviating and condescension in the world doesn't make it a fact. (innocent until proven guilty)

We will see when all the facts come out. Right or wrong it looks like the President was operating under the same SOP that all the recent Presidents have. It was more frequent and bigger in scale due to the GWOT.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

You are obviously someone for whom keeping up with the news is not a priority.

Well - I DO prefer to think for myself rather than re-hash the latest talking points from those who would tear down GWB by pretending to suddenly care about the Bill of Rights.

I HAVE read this though:

http://washtimes.com/national/20050714-121552-8634r_page2.htm

...Gen. Schmidt said the e-mails, and surveys of all 493 FBI agents who worked at the camp, boiled down to nine purported cases of abuse out of 24,000 interrogations. Two were unsubstantiated; five were substantiated, but authorized by the Army Field Manual or by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld; and two were substantiated as unauthorized tactics that resulted in abuse.
Mr. Rumsfeld later rescinded his authorization for stress-inducing tactics after Pentagon lawyers objected. ...
Of those two substantiated incidents, in one case, a detainee was chained to the floor briefly for the protection of guards; in the other, an interrogator placed duct tape on the mouth of an inmate who refused to stop chanting. ...
...The authorized tactics included forcing him to wear women's clothes, calling him a homosexual, insulting his mother and sister as "whores," interrogating him for 20 hours a day, and having women touch him suggestively. No other prisoner was treated this way, the witnesses said. ...

Still doesn't sound like torture to this non-NY Times readin', non-NPR listenin' neanderthal.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Absolutley not. Wasn't hit by debris.

I guess I was unclear. I didn't mean that the debris knocked the other building down. I meant that its foundation may have been affected by the collapse of two large buildings next door.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Well - I DO prefer to think for myself rather than re-hash the latest talking points from those who would tear down GWB by pretending to suddenly care about the Bill of Rights.

I HAVE read this though:

http://washtimes.com/national/20050714-121552-8634r_page2.htm



Still doesn't sound like torture to this non-NY Times readin', non-NPR listenin' neanderthal.

Well, good for you.

But this is not the "torture" that is being talked about. Think Poland, Romania, et al.

I would have thought you would have read the briefs re: Condi's fiasco in Europe recently..

And the civil suit regarding grabbing the wrong and he being released an now is suing...

Keep reading. I'm pullin' for ya'..

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Think Poland, Romania, et al.

Ah -- I'll keep my eyes open for Bush Administration impalings.

...the "torture" that is being talked about...

That being my key point. Lots of "talk" out there. Most of it inaccurate.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

I guess I was unclear. I didn't mean that the debris knocked the other building down. I meant that its foundation may have been affected by the collapse of two large buildings next door.

That's a good question ROTR. It's good to take such a line of reasoning (even if it is in the "thought experiment stage) to its conclusion.

The fall of Bldg. 7 in the late afternoon was as precise, as professional, as far removed from a 'probability event' as could be imagined. Virtually all newscasterrs commented on how bizarre it was that..".. today, for a THIRD TIME, a building fell with the precision of a controlled demolition".

Could ancillary and sporadic damage to a building (non-symetrical damage to it's structural integrity) make a building "pancake" into it's footprint, with the precision of a controlled demolition?

Not bloody likely.

The FedGOD 9/11 report didn't even address Building 7.

"Keep moving, folks. Nothing to see here..."

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Ah -- I'll keep my eyes open for Bush Administration impalings.

That being my key point. Lots of "talk" out there. Most of it inaccurate.

As I wrote, you need to read more. Lots more.

 

[LJWebster1]

If you want to be technical and have you head up your behind, keep saying we are not at war. The following is good enough for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_...se_of_United_States_Armed_Forces_Against_Iraq

 

[ajax]

I cant help myself any more I just have to throw two more cents into the pot. Wllm I believe you to be a conspircy theory kind of guy. You seem to believe yourself to be the most informed guy in this thread. You seem to think others should read more. Well maybe you should read less becuase the ???? your spoutin sounds like its straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. Know that I think about it the goverment probably did blow a hole in the levies in New Orleans and they took out building #7 and they new about the 9/11 attack and let it happen so we could have reason for invading Iraq and Iraq never had WMDs just another reason to go to war.Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[yucaipa]

That being my key point. Lots of "talk" out there. Most of it inaccurate.

Yes,about 5 pages of it so far.

The reason the President admits openly what he did is because he hasn't done anything illegal.

I know some of you think he can not wire tap without a warrant but, the facts are that several courts have said that can.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

I cant help myself any more I just have to throw two more cents into the pot. Wllm I believe you to be a conspircy theory kind of guy. You seem to believe yourself to be the most informed guy in this thread. You seem to think others should read more. Well maybe you should read less becuase the ???? your spoutin sounds like its straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. Know that I think about it the goverment probably did blow a hole in the levies in New Orleans and they took out building #7 and they new about the 9/11 attack and let it happen so we could have reason for invading Iraq and Iraq never had WMDs just another reason to go to war.Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!

Well....I can't think a better representative for the People than yourself. A man with both feet on the ground and as inflexible to contrary opinion as he is unimaginative.

A good fellow, and typical, in this Age of the Common Man.

And by the way, Oswald did it...alone. You certainly believe that, don't you? (happy face)

It's not that conspiracies do not exist; it is a question of what theory are you to believe, this one over here, or that one over there?

A reasonable person (one who is not reluctant to address contradictions when reason exposes them) examines data, formulates a hypothesis that covers (all) of the known facts, and if possible, puts the theory to the test. In the fact of additional or contradictory data, the theory is modified to account for those facts.

It's a simple process but one that has become habitual for me, over time. As for the process of becoming better informed, that's pretty much what I do. I would try and free myself of conscious and unconscious prejudice, if I were you.

But I am not you, and for that I can be thankful.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

As I wrote, you need to read more. Lots more.

Well...I did do some more reading. And to my amazement, it says "Unconditional Guarantee: Reynolds guarantees complete satisfaction or your purchase price refunded." Right there on the box! You can look it up yourself!


























Sorry...Back to the High Road.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Well...I did do some more reading. And to my amazement, it says "Unconditional Guarantee: Reynolds guarantees complete satisfaction or your purchase price refunded." Right there on the box! You can look it up yourself!


























Sorry...Back to the High Road.

 

[Derby FALs]

Exactly who has been tortured?

Being forced to wear a dog collar by a woman isn't torture. And those who did those stipid things were punished.

It seems to me that government officials were standing up to ridiculous new laws about things that:

A. No one was doing.
B. Were already both illegal and against policy.

The new torture laws sound like ridiculous new laws like the AWB to me. Political grandstanding about nothing.

At least two prisoners died in Abu Grahib but the contractors were never charged. 80% of the prisoners are released because they haven't done anything.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

They pass along the info to the FBI minus any info on the US citizen. No name, phone number or any parts of the conversation spoken by the US citizen. They can hand over half the info they gathered and anything after the warrant was issued.

If this is true then it sounds like the FISA rules need to be changed to allow the proper flow of intel.

This is not correct. This is only true of U.S. citizens who are inadvertently part of collection (read the document I linked to earlier), For example, if you call Osama to ask him "Is your refrigerator running? Well you better go catch it!" that would be redacted.

If you call him to ask "Hey why is my bomb vest three sizes too small?" the info you listed above should not be redacted (or at least as of 1993 wasn't redacted and I doubt we have gone backwards that way).

 

[Don Gwinn]

I really think we can do better than vague conspiracy theories and personal attacks. Let's get back on the High Road. . . . now.

 

[telomerase]

Even if that is not the case, we're in deep, deep trouble when the best defense for our current president is that he's no worse than Clinton.

That is not a tenable defense. Bush has massively outspent Clinton in every area. The only Presidents who could match him for increasing government are LBJ and FDR.

 

[Smuggs]

what is the cause of the anger?

While the courts may uphold the wiretaps a lot of this angst could have been avoided by two things.

1. making use of the FISA in getting warrants on intercepts that were of interest and dumping the rest.
2. GWB showing a bit of humility and not the usual arrogance that I have come to expect.

The CARNIVORE system has been in use since the Clinton administration. This distributed processing system actually scans internet, international phone lines as well as cell phones searching for key words in conversations and then using filters similar to the ones many use in spam monitoring software. The intention of this system is that once a signal passes a set number of tests then it is forwarded to analysts for further processing. While the system can only actually catch one out of 100 signals for even a brief look it is a useful tool. Like any other tool it is the person directing it that has the choice to use it wisely or not. I would not have a problem with the intercepts that have been going on if the FISA were informed of any that were to be followed up on and the rest were dumped. In conclusion the current wiretaps may or may not be legal (the courts will have to decide that not an internet forum) but the tools are available to the administration already and following the two steps above would have saved GWB a hell of a lot of grief.

 

[kel]

Newsflash........ 64% of Americans are stupid.

This can also be expressed as "approximately 50% of Americans are below average." Stupidity is a relative term. I'd like to think there is the same intelligence gap exists between myself and the average American as exists betweent the average American and a retarded person. If one were to measure by IQ this statement would hold true. To me the real question is "Is our educational system producing Americans qualified to understand and pass judgement on the issue?"

 

[bogie]

1. making use of the FISA in getting warrants on intercepts that were of interest and dumping the rest.
2. GWB showing a bit of humility and not the usual arrogance that I have come to expect.

1) More people involved means more leaks and means more likelihood of the enemy changing his tactics... Oh wait... that's academic now...

2) The Arab world understands arrogance and power, and perceives what our culture sees as "nice" humility as a weakness to be exploited. If Bush appears in public, he'd better walk and talk like he's got big brass ones, or else they'll think we've got Clinton and her husband again.

Which is more powerful? The .45ACP or the .38 Super?

 

[Smuggs]

If a federal judge on a national security court is a security threat then what the is he doing there in the first place???

And no mater what "Arab World" thinks if GWB arrogance pisses off enuff US citizens then it won't matter who has the bigger set. If the current administration continues to use questionable tactics then it will be a big plus for who ever runs in opposition to the republican party will have a lot of angry voters to draw from. In what way will this help the long term goals of the administration????

 

[bogie]

I think that most of the people who GWB is irritating are Democrats, or people who have forgotten little things like the Cole, WTC1, WTC2, etc...

It's easy to promote isolationism, until it turns around and bites you.

As for fed judges... The more people who are involved with something, the more likely it is to leak. The NSA leak _will_ cost American lives. Not "may," but "will." How do you feel about that?

Having the best-equipped signal intelligence unit in the country chase down the info is the way to do it... What would we be saying right now if something nasty had gone down, and it was leaked that we'd had the chance to use the NSA to chase down the perpetrators, but hadn't because their phones were within the US boundaries? People would be calling for bureaucratic heads on sticks.

Bureaucracy and the fine points of law are _nothing_ next to the harsh realities of large numbers of dead civilians. The Islamic nutjobs _will_ find another way to kill a bunch of us. Not "may." We just need to try to stop them until their own culture will disown them. Iraq will go a long way, as their standard of living increases...