Ditchtiger
Member
7.62 NATO is not the same as .308 Winchester. Where can I get 7.62 NATO reloading info?
7.62 NATO
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Dr. Dickie
Member
The 7.62 NATO is not the same as the .308; however, the differences make no difference provided you are not running the hotter commercial loads in the military spec chambers. For re-loading purposes, you would re-load using .308 dies, and pay attention to the rifle you are loading for (that is, most re-loading manuals have a section for 7.62 NATO loads).
Grumulkin
Member
Actually, for all practical purposes, the 7.62 NATO is the same as a 308 Winchester; if not, pray tell what the differences are? About the same as the difference between the 380 Auto and the 9mm Kurz.
Also, "most" reloading manuals don't have a special section for the 7.62 NATO. In fact, among the manuals I have, only the last two Hornady manuals have loads specifically worked up for the M1A which shoots both (if you want to make a distinction) 7.62 NATO and 308 Winchester ammo.
Also, "most" reloading manuals don't have a special section for the 7.62 NATO. In fact, among the manuals I have, only the last two Hornady manuals have loads specifically worked up for the M1A which shoots both (if you want to make a distinction) 7.62 NATO and 308 Winchester ammo.
ugaarguy
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Not quite. 7.62 NATO Brass is thicker, so it therefor has less case capacity and will have slightly higher pressures for the same powder & bullet. Speer Reloading Manual #13 recommends reducing .308 Win loads by 10% when using military brass. They also note that their loads were developed using IMI surplus brass and therefor need no reduction.
DaveInFloweryBranchGA
Member
The thicker brass and lower case capacity is a known thing with any military cartridge prior to the 5.56MM. This includes the 30.06 and the .308. Not something to get excited about if you do what you're supposed to and work up your loads safely.
ATAShooter
Member
Ditch, The Hornady fifth edition reloading manual has 7.62 NATO in it. Pgs 342 - 345. Test rifle is M1A.
They only list 3 bullet weights though... 155, 168, 178 grns.
They only list 3 bullet weights though... 155, 168, 178 grns.
7.62x51mm NATO (308 Winchester)
I fire Winchester Ammunition 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Winchester) 147 Grain Full Metal Jacket in my SA M1A. A Case of 200 (10 Boxes of 20) is on sale through the end of the month at midwayusa.com for only $99.99
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366288
Happy shooting
I fire Winchester Ammunition 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Winchester) 147 Grain Full Metal Jacket in my SA M1A. A Case of 200 (10 Boxes of 20) is on sale through the end of the month at midwayusa.com for only $99.99
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366288
Happy shooting
Grumulkin
Member
"Not quite. 7.62 NATO Brass is thicker, so it therefor has less case capacity and will have slightly higher pressures for the same powder & bullet."
This is a difference in the construction of the case and not a difference in cartridge external dimensions or firearm chamber. It also isn't necessairly correct that 7.62 NATO cartridges are loaded to "lower pressures." It is true, however, that if one doesn't want to damage a a semiauto one must stay away from the slower powders and perhaps from the heavier bullets. This is not because of high pressures per se but because of a more prolonged peak pressure that can damage the operating rod.
Also, for those who would like to quote the Hornady reloading manual; the latest (7th edition) version does not list loads for 7.62 NATO. Is does, however, list loads for "308 Winchester Service Rifle" which were worked up in an M1A.
You might also be interested to know, that varying case volumes are not just unique to commercial vs military brass. There can also be volume differences between various brands of commercial brass; that doesn't make them a different cartridge.
This is a difference in the construction of the case and not a difference in cartridge external dimensions or firearm chamber. It also isn't necessairly correct that 7.62 NATO cartridges are loaded to "lower pressures." It is true, however, that if one doesn't want to damage a a semiauto one must stay away from the slower powders and perhaps from the heavier bullets. This is not because of high pressures per se but because of a more prolonged peak pressure that can damage the operating rod.
Also, for those who would like to quote the Hornady reloading manual; the latest (7th edition) version does not list loads for 7.62 NATO. Is does, however, list loads for "308 Winchester Service Rifle" which were worked up in an M1A.
You might also be interested to know, that varying case volumes are not just unique to commercial vs military brass. There can also be volume differences between various brands of commercial brass; that doesn't make them a different cartridge.
Ditchtiger
Member
Thank You, Looks like I'll be building up a load before making a few thousand rounds.
Winchester Ammunition 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Winchester)
Is this wrong? is it 7.62x51 NATO or 308 Winchester? I believe it is a true NATO round.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366288
"MidwayUSA is pleased to offer this military production overrun ammunition. Available for a limited time only, this NATO spec ammunition features a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps. This is a copper-clad steel jacket bullet with a lead core in boxer-primed, reloadable brass. Makes a great practice round. Manufactured by Winchester and packaged in Winchester boxes. Made in the USA"
Is this wrong? is it 7.62x51 NATO or 308 Winchester? I believe it is a true NATO round.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366288
"MidwayUSA is pleased to offer this military production overrun ammunition. Available for a limited time only, this NATO spec ammunition features a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps. This is a copper-clad steel jacket bullet with a lead core in boxer-primed, reloadable brass. Makes a great practice round. Manufactured by Winchester and packaged in Winchester boxes. Made in the USA"
Bad Flynch
Member
>7.62 NATO is also lower pressure so load accordingly<
In fact, the pressures for the two cartridges are the same. The oft-quoted differences arise because the systems used to measure the pressure are entirely different. When the same system is used on both cartridges, the allowable pressures are the same.
The differences in loading data arise from the (already mentioned) differences in case capacity.
In fact, the pressures for the two cartridges are the same. The oft-quoted differences arise because the systems used to measure the pressure are entirely different. When the same system is used on both cartridges, the allowable pressures are the same.
The differences in loading data arise from the (already mentioned) differences in case capacity.
dmftoy1
Member
I think I read a really good writeup on this once and the conclusion was to not shoot .308 in a "7.62" rifle as it "might" damage it but vice versa was perfectly fine.
The discussion was centered around measurements of the go/no-go headspacing gauges used for both calibers. If I remember correctly the 7.62 had a slightly large acceptable headspace than the .308 and there was the possibility of a case head separation if firing .308 ammo in a 7.62 chamber that was at the excessive end of acceptable. At least I think that was the conclusion that I reached after reading it.
Have a good one,
Dave
The discussion was centered around measurements of the go/no-go headspacing gauges used for both calibers. If I remember correctly the 7.62 had a slightly large acceptable headspace than the .308 and there was the possibility of a case head separation if firing .308 ammo in a 7.62 chamber that was at the excessive end of acceptable. At least I think that was the conclusion that I reached after reading it.
Have a good one,
Dave
Grumulkin
Member
"If I remember correctly the 7.62 had a slightly large acceptable headspace than the .308 and there was the possibility of a case head separation if firing .308 ammo in a 7.62 chamber that was at the excessive end of acceptable."
That doesn't mean the cartridges are different; only that the chambers are sloppy. I would challenge you to find anywhere, in print from a reputable source, any statement that it was dangerous to fire standard 308 Winchester factory ammo in a properly constructed modern firearm chambered for the 7.62 NATO cartridge (if you insist on making that distinction). Also, "the excessive end of acceptable" is an oxymoron but I think I know what you were trying to say.
That doesn't mean the cartridges are different; only that the chambers are sloppy. I would challenge you to find anywhere, in print from a reputable source, any statement that it was dangerous to fire standard 308 Winchester factory ammo in a properly constructed modern firearm chambered for the 7.62 NATO cartridge (if you insist on making that distinction). Also, "the excessive end of acceptable" is an oxymoron but I think I know what you were trying to say.
243winxb
Member
I think dmftoy1 and Grumulkin have it, there is a difference in head spacing and chamber dimentions.
dmftoy1
Member
LOL - In print from a reputable source is more googling than I care to do on my day off.
The writeup I was referring two was done by a military armourer who I "think" worked on the Remington Model 700's that were converted for sniper work. It was very well written and he provided "mic'd" measurements of the go and no-go headspace gauges for both .308 and for 7.62. I thought his arguments were valid but I didn't see him doing an piezo pressure tests to destruction either. : )
Have a good one,
Dave
The writeup I was referring two was done by a military armourer who I "think" worked on the Remington Model 700's that were converted for sniper work. It was very well written and he provided "mic'd" measurements of the go and no-go headspace gauges for both .308 and for 7.62. I thought his arguments were valid but I didn't see him doing an piezo pressure tests to destruction either. : )
Have a good one,
Dave
MarinePride
Member
I was firing some of my .308 reloads out of a PTR91 using commercial brass and it seemed like it was recoiling more and beating the rifle up a bit more than the 7.62mm surplus I had on hand for that range session. Just my experience, but from what I've read, .308 factory loadings have more velocity and more pressure than 7.62 NATO.
Is 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Winchester) Nato or NOT?
Is 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Winchester) Nato or NOT?
Any one know for sure?
This is what I've been buying and shooting out of my SA M1A:
"MidwayUSA is pleased to offer this military production overrun ammunition. Available for a limited time only, this NATO spec ammunition features a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps. This is a copper-clad steel jacket bullet with a lead core in boxer-primed, reloadable brass. Makes a great practice round. Manufactured by Winchester and packaged in Winchester boxes. Made in the USA"
I believe it is a TRUE NATO round.
Is 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Winchester) Nato or NOT?
Any one know for sure?
This is what I've been buying and shooting out of my SA M1A:
"MidwayUSA is pleased to offer this military production overrun ammunition. Available for a limited time only, this NATO spec ammunition features a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps. This is a copper-clad steel jacket bullet with a lead core in boxer-primed, reloadable brass. Makes a great practice round. Manufactured by Winchester and packaged in Winchester boxes. Made in the USA"
I believe it is a TRUE NATO round.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Just a nit:
My pet NATO-pressure load is 44gr Varget in R-P commercial cases trimmed to 2.010" under a Winchester bulk pack 150gr SP and lit off with a CCI 200 primer. This load gives excellent accuracy and moderate pressures in my CETMEs and my FAL, works quite well in my commercial Saiga 308, AR-10s, and my Savage 99 308s, is accepted for use at ranges with FMJ bans (not uncommon) and is actually a pretty good hunting load. Last time I checked, it cost me about $225/thousand to make...
It may be manufactured to NATO spec (and therefore be considered as a NATO 7.62x51 round for the purposes of civilian use) but it's not a NATO round without the NATO stamp on the head indicating that it's manufacture was conducted in conformance to NATO standards and inspections.
Generally, something just above the starting loads for 308 with a 150gr-168gr bullet will be fine to shoot in any firearm designed for 7.62x51 NATO.
My pet NATO-pressure load is 44gr Varget in R-P commercial cases trimmed to 2.010" under a Winchester bulk pack 150gr SP and lit off with a CCI 200 primer. This load gives excellent accuracy and moderate pressures in my CETMEs and my FAL, works quite well in my commercial Saiga 308, AR-10s, and my Savage 99 308s, is accepted for use at ranges with FMJ bans (not uncommon) and is actually a pretty good hunting load. Last time I checked, it cost me about $225/thousand to make...
But they say military production overrun ammunition. Available for a limited time only, this NATO spec ammunition features a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps.
It's a 147 grain load. And It appears that it IS military production overrun ammunition? It's not going to change my useage I'm just curious why a reputible company like midwayusa would make such a claim if it weren't true.
Does anybody know the muzzle velocity of the NATO round? if it's 2800 FPS then I think it would be true NATO ammo.
Is all NATO ammo stamped NATO? 5.56 too?
It's a 147 grain load. And It appears that it IS military production overrun ammunition? It's not going to change my useage I'm just curious why a reputible company like midwayusa would make such a claim if it weren't true.
Does anybody know the muzzle velocity of the NATO round? if it's 2800 FPS then I think it would be true NATO ammo.
Is all NATO ammo stamped NATO? 5.56 too?
rbernie
Contributing Member
It may be true - I don't know. My point was to look for the NATO headstamp; that's the only way to really call it NATO. The NATO marking is a little circle with a cross in it.
Yes.
Jacka L Ope
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