7.62 WWII Era Handguns

[ArchAngelCD]

What WWII era Russian/Romanian/Czech handguns fire 7.62mm ammo? (especially the ones made in Czechoslovakia) I looked on the net but didn't find much. I'm sure there is more information here on the forum other than just the Tokarov but a forum search gave me over 10 pages of posts.

 

[mp510]

Post war, the Czech's had the CZ-52.

 

[wcwhitey]

The WW2 era Soviet gun was the Moisin Nagant revolver in 7.62. It used a long casing with recessed bullet not the same as the 7.62x25. The action had a movement that while rotating it would walk the cylinder forward to the forcing cone and mate up with the casing of the round in the cylinder. This would in essence creat a seal that would launch the 30 caliber round to pretty high velocities (cannot recall the actual numbers) without leakage. A strong revolver despite it's complexities. Ammo is expensive but available. Then there are the Cold War guns like the Takorov and later the Makorov (similar to Walther PP). Both are available surplus for less than $200. I am not sure if the Makorov was ever chambered in the 7.62 like the Takorov. Check places like Aims surplus. P.S. forgive my spelling as my Russian is not so good! LOL Bill

 

[Jim K]

AFAIK, the only nation using the 7.62x25 in WWII was Russia (USSR). The eastern European nations did not adopt that caliber until after the war when they were made part of the Soviet sphere. China also did not use the caliber under the WWII Chiang government, only when the Communists took over.

(Germany used some 7.63x25 Mausers (basically the same round) but it was never adopted - the standard pistol/SMG caliber was the 9x19 or 9mm Parabellum.)

The Makarov was never (and never could have been) chambered for the 7.62x25; the gun is too small and is a straight blowback.

Jim

 

[Cosmoline]

What WWII era Russian/Romanian/Czech

What do you mean? Are you asking about what pre-war firearms the Czech or Romanian military forces might have had? They were under German control for most of the war, then Soviet control. The Czech factories were made to service German needs after 1939. They had a famous small arms industry, but I'm not aware of what sidearms their pre-invasion troops carried. I would assume it was a VZ27 in 7.65 Browning. I know their police forces used that one. Romania, I have no clue. Possibly WWI vintage Nagants from their days fighting with the allies.

The main sidearms for the USSR were the T-33 and Nagant 95, both firing "7.62" cartridges, but they were very different from one another. On the German side some C-96 Mausers were around firing a 7.63x25 cartridge.

wcwhitey, the revolver you're talking about is just a Nagant, not a Mosin-Nagant. The Mosin is a rifle. Also, the Tokarev is not a Cold War pistol, it was introduced in the 1930's and was supposed to replace the Nagant, but they couldn't make enough.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

During the war, I'm asking about these guns because my Uncle is trying to explain a gun he brought back from Europe (coming home from WWII) that shoots a 7.62 round. I forgot to ask him if it's a pistol or revolver. He said a cousin looked it up on the NET a while back and couldn't find it while looking for a Russian gun but found it as a Czechoslovakia gun. He forgot the name and was trying to tell me about it. I just thought if I could get some names and other info I could help his memory a little.

 

[jaysouth]

Czech CZ-27s were issued to German troops and fired the standard 7.62 that we call the .32 Auto.

 

[Manedwolf]

During the war, I'm asking about these guns because my Uncle is trying to explain a gun he brought back from Europe (coming home from WWII) that shoots a 7.62 round. I forgot to ask him if it's a pistol or revolver. He said a cousin looked it up on the NET a while back and couldn't find it while looking for a Russian gun but found it as a Czechoslovakia gun. He forgot the name and was trying to tell me about it. I just thought if I could get some names and other info I could help his memory a little.

I would suspect that it was either the Nagant revolver or the Tokarev TT-33 semiautomatic pistol.

Then there are the Cold War guns like the Takorov and later the Makorov (similar to Walther PP). Both are available surplus for less than $200.

A looooong time ago. Actual Russian Toks and Maks are WAY above that, now. Try at least double that. I got a seriously low deal on a Polish Tok for $225, and regularly see them for $400+. Russian WWII ones are in orbit. Last time I saw one at a show with the CCCP grips, it was over $600.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yeah, it may be one of the VZ-27's or a subtype. Good pistols. They're called "CZ-27's" all the time, because of the infamous confusion between "VZ" and "CZ" when it comes to Czech firearms. I wouldn't be surprised if CZ made them, but they were designated VZ, just like the Mausers were until the end of Communism. Now the VZ Mausers are CZ 550's.

Anyway, here's one of the VZ or CZ 27's:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=63046666

A lot of these were bringbacks, but while Nagant revolvers are common now they were NOT common as bringbacks. We weren't fighting the Rooskies then, so there weren't many chances for a GI to take one off a dead Ivan. It would have led to bad feelings all around ;-)

 

[Mortech]

I noticed when he said 7.62 everyone assumed he meant 7.62X25 Tok , I wonder if he actually means 7.62 Browning which we know as 32 ACP ?? There were quite a few pistol chambered in this that are prewar especially alot of Browning copies/ripoffs made in eastern europe .

 

[wcwhitey]

So was I at least right about the action of the Nagant (not a Moisin)? LOL, I will defer to your expertise. Cosmo, how many of the Tok's were actually in play in WW2, or should I say, were they common. I know the round was being used in the sub-machine guns of the time (PPSH's?) but was not aware of the Tok being used. The Germans placed as many sidearms into play as they could, either caputured, forced labor or personally owned so we cannot eliminate any period produced firearm as being "Issued by the Germans". .45's, Hi-Powers, etc. Always looking to learn, Bill

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

It is 7.65mm which in Europe means 32 ACP.

Many German Staff Officers and Staff Officers of other Armies in Europe carried small handguns, generally in 32 caliber, it was more a badge of office than something intended for use, line officers usually found a larger caliber pistol or a rifle and probably tucked the 32 in a coat pocket or boot as a last ditch weapon.

The Tokarev pistol was a WWII issue, in the Soviet army along with the various subguns and pistol's of other calibers, since they got tons of lend lease and were not above picking up weapons off dead germans to use against their former owners.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

But what about the stuff manufactured by the Czechs?

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Czech made pistol and Beretta's were favored by the Wermacht and the Luftwaffe

CZ model (19) 22 7.65 mm Brno manufacture
CZ model (19) 24 7.65 mm CZ manufacture 190,000 made locked breech
CZ model (19) 27 7.65 mm CZ manufacture till 1939 when the plant was taken over by the Germans

Pistolen 27 (t) was made until 1945 with the top of the slide marked BOMISCHE WAFFENFABRIK A.G. IN PRAG with PISTOLE MODELL 27 Kal 7.65 on the left side of the frame.

Guns made after 1941 omitted the top-rib markings in favor of fnh PISTOLE MODELL 27 KAL 7,65 on the left side of the slide. fnh was the german designation code for the CZ factory.


Really after this the next model was post war CZ 1950, so odds are good that the pistol we are talking about is one of these 3, but given the German control of the Czech arms industry, chances are pretty good that it could be a CZ 27 either assembled by CZ and issued by the Germans or one built under German Supervision and issued by the Germans.

Hope this helps

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Shaughn Leayme,
YOU ARE GREAT!!! I remember him saying something about Pistolen or Pistole!!! Do you know where I can get info on that gun???

Thank you very much, really!!

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

www.simpsonltd.com has one listed under handguns - Czech and it is a very good picture.

Google it will give you the widest choice, since I rely on my old notes, having once collected Czech and WWII weapons and I still have some of the files even though I no longer have the guns.

 

[Jim K]

At the beginning of WWII, the official Czech military pistol was the Vz.38, a blowback, DAO pistol in 9mm Browning Short (.380 ACP), although many Czech units were still armed with the rotating barrel Vz.22 and Vz.24 pistols, also in 9mm BS. The 7.65mm (.32 ACP) CZ Model 27, a simplified, blowback version of the Vz.24, was also used, but the 9mm BS was the standard Czech pistol caliber.

The Model 27 was produced in large quantities for the Germans, since 7.65 Browning was a standard German pistol caliber, where the 9mm BS (or "9mm Kurz" in German terminology) was not. The Germans did use the 9mm BS Czech pistols, but did not have any made for them. Production of the Vz.38 was not continued by the Germans, although a somewhat updated version was produced starting in 1947.

(The Czech Vz.38 is sometimes called the "Czech P.38" although the Germans called it the P.39(t), the "t" standing for Tschechoslovakie, the German spelling of Czechoslovakia.)

Jim