7.62X25 Carbine

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for ultimate 7.62x25 blaster you need one of these, either with fixed or folding stock:
m23.jpg

and, of cause, these guns are as nice as every other Czech-made guns, and buit to eat the hot-rodded Czech smg ammo. Ultimate companion for Cz-52

See details here: http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg46-e.htm
 
Tony Williams

I would counter with why is there an effort to discredit Roberts, Fackler, etc. when all they have done is report the results of their testing?

Like it or not ballistic gelatin is the preferred medium for testing the terminal effectiveness of firearms rounds.

The only time I see people get their panties in a bunch is when their new whiz-bang cartridge fairs poorly.

Then they trot out all kinds of "anecdotal" evidence that they feel contradicts the results.

And I have seen posts by Dr. Roberts where he admits that the platform may fill a need especially for EP personell like the SS

And...as always...hitting what you aim at is more important than the round

If the P90 gives you an advantage at that....by all means...use it

The rest of you guys...stop it with the Bizon eye candy...I am drooling on my keyboard:D
 
I have some sympathy with those who question the effectiveness of the 5.7x28 round. Usually the use of 'trick' bullets to magnify the effectiveness of a relatively small and low-powered cartridge show patchy results; sometimes they work spectacularly well, sometimes they don't work at all. Whereas there is just no arguing with a large lump of metal travelling quickly.

Bearing in mind that the 5.56x45 NATO is criticised often enough for lack of effectiveness, and that fires a heavier bullet at a higher velocity (and one which tumbles quickly and fragments as well), then I personally am remaining neutral on this issue until a lot more practical experience has been gained. The introduction of the 5.56x45 was accompanied by a lot of stories about its devastating effectiveness as well...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum
 
fun stuff

An MP5, with a longer than 5 inch barrel and using modern powders, combined with a Quick-shok bullet design would more lethal for CQB than a Hillary centerfold on a SWAT shield.
Click to expand...

I'll vouch for that!

But seeing as we're not likely to ever see one, I think that the best bet for a 7.62x25 carbine would be that folding one that Kel-Tec makes.
Click to expand...

An interesting idea, I wonder if the current design could handle it? I've heard of people trying to convert their 9mm Sub 2000 to .357 sig
by altering to to take .40 SW mags (and the drilling out the chamber as well). Kel-Tec doesn't reccomend it at all and reports having a few sent to them badly damaged because of this modification. It might work with the Tokarev though. They could even make to take CZ52 or ppsh mags!

I think this may unfortunatly just be my fantasy though, I doubt there is enough intrest in this cartridge other than bieng just a piece of Commie history. People would probably be more willing to adopt a newer cartridge for this purpose, .357 sig would be the next candidate I guess.:cuss:
 
Sounds like the Bizon is using the PPsh-41/PPS43 stick magazine, which is a good idea since there's a great many of them out there and it's a proven design.

For size/handling and simplicity, the PPS43 wins among the 7.62X25mm SMGs (not that there's a massive crowd out there) for me..... it only has like four parts! (not counting magazine) and a folding stock. The PPsh has more rounds, but I've handled a deactivated one, and they're rather bulky and hard to grip well other than on the drum. I'd take the 43 myself, or the Bizon.
 
I understand there was a .357 Sub rifle (Sub 357?). Anyway, it was part of the Sub-9 series, which are no longer made.

John
 
When considering the historical 7.62x25 SMGs don't forget that there were at least a couple chambered for the 9x25 Mauser Export cartridge, which was the same round except for calibre and weapons could therefore have been easily convertible.

One was the Solothurn S1-100, a traditional heavy, wood-stocked SMG like the MP 28. Another was the much more interesting Hungarian Danubia designed by Kiraly, which was more like a selective-fire carbine with a long barrel and a rifle-type stock. It didn't use a straight blowback design.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
 
Forgive me but it seems that the Bizon is just an AK cut down to subgun size or is there more to it than that?

I was thinking about going one step further and chambering a subgun in .30 Armco (10mm case necked down to .30 cal which give a 110gr pill at 1850f/s out of a 5 inch barrel) but I got to thinking that we might be creating a solution in search of a problem.

The golden days of the subgun were all pre-assault rifle. In WWII it might be relevant to mention the superior distance of a 7.62x25 over a 9mm but it seems quite moot when a 5.56mm is factored into the equation. Now consider the fact that bullpup assault rifles are becoming more common so I have to wonder if the subguns might be loosing even more ground for CQB (their bread and butter).
 
An afterthought: the Israeli Magal in .30 Carbine seems to be in the same class as the 7.62mm Bizon, only with more power:

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum


MAGAL.jpg
 
The Bizon does share SOME parts commonality, but is by no means a "cut down AK", unlike the Micro Assault Rifle- of which the Magal is a version, cosmetically modified and using M1 Carbine mags.

John
 
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