7.62X39. HP or FMJ?

[epijunkie67]

Is there a significant level of difference in performance between the HP and FMJ in 7.62X39? Wolf or Sapsan is really cheap right now and I've thought about stocking up on some. I have an SKS I use as a "general purpose" gun and it could, depending on the situation, end up being used in a self defense situation though it isn't what I'd grab first if I had a choice.

So is there a lot of difference between the HP and FMJ? How much expansion, if any, do you get out of the HP? Whats penetration like? For self defense, since I'm not bound by the hague convention, should I look at the more expensive soft point ammo?

 

[Gun God]

Now I dont dont know how much the HP's expand but I'll tell you that WILL be better than FMJ's when it comes down to "effect on target".

 

[1911user]

The russian HP ammo doesn't expand any more than FMJ. The jacket is too thick unlike real HP/SP ammo for hunting which uses a tapered jacket to promote controlled expansion. The HP ammo also has a tendancy to hang up when being fed into the chamber. IF the rifle has any feeding issues, the HP ammo will probably find it. So I'd stick with FMJ unless you are doing a feed reliability test, then grab the HP. Remember, most things chambered for 7.62x39 were designed as military weapons and FMJ ammo.

If you really want expansion, use US-made softpoint ammo. Yes, it is expensive and they work well. Reloading your own might save some money if you have reloading gear.

 

[teppo-shu]

The russian HP ammo doesn't expand any more than FMJ.

Second that. The hollow point just clogs up. Buy whichever's cheapest for plinking, buy SP's for hunting or other purposes.

 

[Burt Blade]

Many rifle bullets are made with a "hollow point" consisting of a tiny opening with no depth. This is not to improve expansion. It is for ballistic performance.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but having a clean and uniform _base_ on a rifle bullet is much more important than having a perfectly pointy tip. It has to do with drag. The shockwave at the tip of the supersonic bullet is almost the same shape regardless of what the tip looks like, provided it is not overly wide. The base of the bullet and bullet length is actually far more important to drag. A fully copper-clad boat-tail is a very low drag configuration. A square-base bullet with an exposed lead area in a copper "collar" is very high-drag.

By making the base closed and the tip open, the bullet is "filled" from the front, then swaged down to a tiny "hollow point". This winds up being the best shape you can make without either plugging the tip with some pointy item, or simply copper-plating a perfect shape. It is also fairly simple to make cheaply.

 

[mr.trooper]

i alwase just figured it was so people could legal use it for hunting...since FMJ is illegal almoste eveoryware.

 

[beerslurpy]

Now I dont dont know how much the HP's expand but I'll tell you that WILL be better than FMJ's when it comes down to "effect on target".

As a 17 year old who has never shot a gun, how do you even know the first thing about terminal ballistics? At least go hunting or gelatin testing with a few different round types before you start spouting off about these things like an expert. Your incessant post-whoring is filling the forum with disinformation and I would appreciate it if would go back to lurking.

Re: jhp vs fmj in 7.62, 99 percent of the JHP rounds available in this caliber dont expand due to the massive thickness of most 7.62x39 jackets. The only notable exception is the ulyanovsk EM3. It fragments out to about 100 yards in wet newspaper. The rest all behave almost exactly like FMJ. They penetrate deeply and dont fragment or expand. EM3 is also sold as Sapsan, though it is hard to get.

Most people have had good luck with Uly EM1 match ("silver bear match") as it is highly accurate, clean shooting and yaws very quickly in testing and stays sideways. It is a FMJ round, obviously.

Wolf has just come out with a 150gr soft point at 2100 fps that I havent had a chance to test yet. It sounds promising for a self defnese or hunting round.

 

[Crosshair]

The Wolf HP bullets comming from my SKS come out of the target (boxes of sand) as raged pieces of metal while the FMJ bullets stay relativly intact. The tip on the HP crumples on impact and fragments very easily. However the FMJ bullets did penitrate farther. Against a living target I would use HP bulets if they function in you're weapon. My SKS eats them and asks for more, so it's HP for me, and they cost the same as FMJ.

 

[jobu07]

I've found from recovered bullets that wolf HP and FMJ really have no difference in the way they "expand" (if you could even call it that ). They mostly just deform the same way. Now, if you want a good 7.62x39 that is inexpensive and expands a lot, buy any sort of imported soft point hunting ammo. I've found that it expands much more nicely, and it's abou as cheap at the fmj and hp ammo as well.

For all of my purposes, i'll just stick with whichever case of wolf ammo the boys a the gunshow have for $80. HP, FMJ... makes no difference to me. It's all gonna be plinkin' ammo anyway!

 

[Snowdog]

7.62x39 HPs often do expand, though not in a manner one would expect.

7.62x39 base-forward expansion

I did a little write up on Wolf 7.62x39 HPs a while ago on either TFL or THR after some tests against water, "wet-pack" and play dough. If interested, do a little search... the findings were interesting.

 

[Godfather]

I've used Wolf HP's a lot and really like what they do. Now, about every 1 out of 20 shots comes back like Snowdog's there (at least for me). But the majority of them mushroom out and fragment everywhere in soft targets (ie, wet sand).

The HP's are basically FMJ's with the ends cut off, so it's not like their high grade engineering. If you want the best chance to do the most damage, keep a stripper clip of HP's nearby.

 

[SmershAgent]

I'm glad someone had the good sense to ask pose this question, as it's something I've wondered about but never thought of posting. I shoot 7.62x39 in SKSs, and I usually buy the 500 round cases of Wolf or Brown Bear. The last batch I got at a gun show was supposedly FMJ, but I discovered a few HP boxes had been mixed in. I wasn't able to determine any differences regarding accuracy or feeding, but I'm inclined to favor the FMJ based upon what people have said here.

 

[mr.trooper]

All of these tests and opinions cover stuff like Wolf and Silver/Brown Bear, wich is great for plinking and general purpose stuff.

BUT has anyone tested the effects of the premium grade, American Made 7.62x39? i KNOW its rediculously expensive (when compared to surpluss or import ammo, not when compared to other American made hunting ammo...).

im talking about stuff like PMC's 125gr Soft point hunting ammo, or Winchesters 123gr SuperX Soft point, or COR BON's 125gr JHP ammo; $.44, $.60 and $.75 per round respectively. Its as expensive as SIN (for 30 commie...), but has anyone tested the preformance of this premium stuff against the Wolf and Silver bear???

Thanks.

 

[Godfather]

I haven't compared performance yet, but I do have a box of Remington SP's for hunting season. Although, the Wolf ammo shoots exactly to poit of aim no matter what range I sight it in on. Only problem is the steel casings can rust after four or so months.

I read an article in Shooting Times where a guy was pimping an AKM for home defense, and on the ammo table he gave, of all the expensive and impressive sounding ammo, that the only stuff that held a tighter group than Wolf FMJ's was the Wolf SP.

 

[beerslurpy]

Sand tears up rifle bullets. It is NOT an accurate measurement of terminal performance. Check out... sand o' truth

It is a barrier, not a wound simulation medium.

Use wet newspaper or gelatin to simulate tissue. Use a water barrel or jugs of water if you dont care about testing penetration but just want to see how it expands.

 

[Crosshair]

You are correct that sand is not a good measurement of a bullets performance. I only used the sand comparison because I have never shot FMJ into wet cardboard, though I have shot the HP through cardboard many times. The effect on the HP was the same, it came out as raged fragments, though penitration was farther.

 

[Tanfj]

I tend to shoot a lot of the 154gr softtip made by
Wolf, I honestly can't tell much difference shooting into
water filled milk jugs... (Evil, evil water-filled milk jugs )

According to the old formula Cal*Weight*Speed/100;
I get the following figures for Wolf Ammo:
876.94 for 122gr@2396fps
972.05 for 154gr@2104fps

So the heavier bullet will hit about 10% harder based
on the numbers.

My SKS will eat either and not complain, and the price is
the same so shoot what you like.

Bearing in mind I am a lousy shot with a rifle; I put
30 rounds of the 154gr in a 4" square at 100yards
firing off a folded guncase at a bench.

My best group was the four shots I placed in the
two inch bullseye

 

[Moonclip]

I have heard that hp Russian 7.62x39 was made to get around some sort of import restriction of some sort. I think for hunting or serious work a decent quality softpoint would be in order but I have never fired any 7.62x39 that was not steel case com bloc stuff.

I have read that the flat based Yugo 7.62x39 is more effective in soft tissue than boattail projectiles as it yaws in soft tissue at a shoter depth causing a more severe wound. As we are not bound by Geneva convention or Hague accords for anti personnel use and most states disallow FMJ for hunting I think I would just find a good softpoint for use that is important and just stock up on whatever is cheap and functions for informal target shooting and plinking.

 

[Bigfoot]

This thread deals directly with the title question about FMJ vs HP. http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000521

I keep my Mini-30 loaded with Winchester 123 gr. It's top rated based on the gel test results posted here. Lapua loads a bonded bullet which is a close second in performance IIRC, I haven't shot any of it though. The earlier yawing Yugo ammo mentioned by Moonclip is shown too. http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000644

For inexpensive Roosky ammo see if you can find some Uly 124 gr JHP. Results here. http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000963

 

[Intel6]

One thing to remember when comparing Wolf FMJ or HP is that the HP is simply the FMJ with the tip cut off. I had some HP's and wanted to see if they had enclosed bases like a real HP does and I found the base was exposed the same as the FMJ. When I looked at them togeather the bullets were isentical, the JHP just had the tip milled off. Fromt he looks of it they judt run the FMJ through one more step to make it JHP.

Neal in AZ

 

[benEzra]

IMHO the Cor-Bon 125-gr JHP would be the cat's meow for the 7.62x39mm, but does anybody know if Cor-Bon uses hard mil-spec primers? I'm leery of using any U.S. made 7.62x39mm in an eastern-bloc rifle because U.S. primers are often much softer than these rifles were designed for, as I understand.

 

[Texian Pistolero]

Many ranges have banned FMJ, so this is just an expedient to deal with the BS.

I really haven't got a consistent answer on why FMJ is banned at these ranges. It has cut down on my patronage. Screw 'em.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

I can honestly say, having A/B'd Wolf FMJ and HP vs. a computer, some hard drive platters, cable spools etc. that the HP leaves a larger hole- Usually comparable to 7.62 x 54 at similar range.

I recently purchased a 1000 round can of wolf SP ammo for my SKS and AKM and have only 1 stoppage between them after going through almost half the box firing quick successive semi auto. The one stoppage I did have was because of a deformed lead point. It costs the same as the FMJ ammo and I see greater hole-making performance while at the same time no loss in accuracy (as far as wolf ammo goes). Most of the time It ends up getting bump fired or shot into rocks anyhow but it's all fun in the end. Being as I've had rarely any stoppages, I wouldn't mind using it as a self defense round.

 

[john l]

Did some accuracy testing last october with my Bully ak.
Wolf 122 gr fmj. and Wolf 122 HP seemed to group about the same with a little tighter group with the 122 fmj. ( I shoot 10-shot groups at 100 yards using a front rest and taking all the time I need ) This will be my normal load for competition and plinking.

Wolf 154gr soft point printed a little higher and grouped about the same, if not slightly worse, than the above mentioned rounds. Kicked a little different because of the weight, but didn't seem like it was annoying, just different.

Cheetah 123 gr fmj. Prolly grouped the best, but only by an inch or so tighter groups. Bought it because it doesn't have any steel in the jacket alloy like the Wolf brand does, but don't plan to buy any more. Extra cost doesn't justify the continued purchase

Silver Bear."Match" 122 gr fmj. "Match" my ass. worst in the accuracy dept by a noticeable amount. The odd looking "nipple" on the point prolly didn't help.

Sorry if you are looking at only penetration and expansion issues. Hope this helps a bit.
john L