7.62x39 or RPG for elephant hunting?

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Oleg Volk

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In reading posts by hunters, I see pretty snide attitudes towards people who hunt with something other than a big game rifle. Seems to me that getting an elephant with a low-powered AK or with a hard to aim RPG would be as much a feat as getting one with a .458 So, not bringing poaching into this, is there any readon not to go hunting legally with a FAL, AK or an RPG7?
 
Well, it is illegal in many places. As I understand it, poachers often hose elephant with AK's.

I am aware of one instance where an alert guard emptied his SLR (FAL) into a charging elephant. Killed the elephant, but some people died, first.

Use enough gun, you know? How much is enough is a debate, but if the number starts with ".3", it probably ain't it.

John
 
OK, let me clarify: IF it were legal, is there any ethical reason not to hunt with a FAL, AK, RPG or a Barret?
 
correct me if i'm wrong ,but don't the countries that allow legal harvesting of elephants(& other dangerous game sp.)usually have minimum caliber requirements?i seem to remember seeing such.
the smallest dangerous game calibers were .375 H&H,& .416whatever.
no opinion on what you shoot just figure that the mins are there to CYA somebody.:)
 
I am aware of one instance where an alert guard emptied his SLR (FAL) into a charging elephant. Killed the elephant, but some people died, first.
I read of an instance where a work elephant went on the rampage in... Burma? think it was? ...and a local cop managed to kill it with his 2" .38 Spl.


Oleg, there's a line one walks between keeping it sporting and putting the animal down with dignity and minimal suffering. Rocket-Propelled Grenades are not sporting, IMHO.
 
Matt G wrote:
Oleg, there's a line one walks between keeping it sporting and putting the animal down with dignity and minimal suffering. Rocket-Propelled Grenades are not sporting, IMHO.

Not disagreeing, but why do you think that? I'd imagine an RPG would kill an elephant or other large animal more quickly than a rifle.
 
I gues sI am just curious if the choice of the gun is utility, tradition or submission to regulations...
 
Oleg, you mentioned Barret in the second post, and I would have no qualms whatsoever about using the Barret light .50 sniper rifle on anything. Otherwise, the .30-416 with 220 grain solids might very well work great, but you can't put it in a gas operated action that I know of. Big/dangerous game has been hunted with all manner of smaller bores and smaller cartridges, but hunting and stopping are two very different things in Africa.

Oh, yeah, and Bell used a ... oh, never mind.:rolleyes:

The RPG with a shaped charge aimed between the eyes of a pachyderm would do the job well I think, but try getting it through customs!
 
It sounds more like you're talking about hunters who scorn using EBR's on deer, Oleg. It's the "They won't come after my deer rifle" crowd that so many RKBA people get frustrated with. Gun bigots.
 
Oleg,

As Matt said there is a line one walks in hunting.

Too light a round and you have a pain maddened animal taking hours or days to die. I wouldn't consider that to be very ethical when shooting a rat...or even when destroying maggots. When you're talking dangerous game, you must also realize that you have possibly unleashed destruction upon others even if you yourself survive. Again, I would not consider this to be an ethical course of action.

RPG7? Why? The only reasons I can think of to use one is if I were starving and had no better weapon. I would also be concerned about the warhead wounding other animals besides the target...once again leaving me in unethicals territory.
 
Some famous Ivory hunter used a 'rifle' called "Baby" that fired a 2 pound explosive shell.

Even in the days before reliable powders and vast numbers of game... I would still consider that "unsporting".

To quote Capstick "Any idiot can shoot an elephant from 100 yards off. To HUNT an elephant one needs to get close, sometimes danger close so that you KNOW your shot will put him down."

Chasing an elephant you wounded can take a LONG time. (or so I've read.)

You want to deer hunt with an FAL or AK.. no skin off my back.

I could see a .50 being used to kill/hunt walrus. After all, you want to anchor him right there so he doesn't get back in the water, right? This is true of crocs too.. but a .270 will zap a croc.
 
Perhaps if you used a monolithic solid in the RPG instead of a shaped charge it would go over better.
 
I imagine that the laws/regulations concerning caliber/cartridge/energy all derive from two factors: First, a quick, clean kill. Second, applicable primarily to dangerous game, is that "Use Enough Gun" saves all the hassle of informing the widow as to Darwinism.

Odds are that an AK bullet might well not penetrate to the heart of an elephant or a buffalo, particularly if bone is hit. From what I have read of the anatomy of an elephant, an AK bullet likely could not penetrate to the brain in the event of a frontal shot.

It has been repeated many times by experienced hunters that a bullet/cartridge combination capable of not only breaking heavy bone but penetrating very deeply or clear through a large animal is the preferred combination.

An RPG is awkward and bulky, and difficult to get past Customs.

:), Art
 
Well, maybe not elephants...

with the little .30 Rusky- or in this case, ".30 Risky"? Bell got away with a lot using those long 7mm FMJ's becuase of their high SD, which is something the AK round lacks. Let's just say that IF I was stuck defending the mud hut from a marauding pachyderm with a 7.62x39, I'd LIKE for it to be with an AK. Make that the original full-auto version please, with about 8 extra 30-round magazines... and I'd probably prefer to make my stand near that big stack of RPG's over there, if given the choice.

But your question was about hunting, which is usually different from stopping fights- usually. I can certainly think of a good reason in favor of hunting with civilian versions the military stuff- and that is to prove that many of these fine guns are eminently suitable for that purpose, despite the sheep-like bleating of the poor, frightened gun-banners. So this fall, I am going to unlimber the old SAR-1 and a ten-round magazine of Wolf 154 SP, and make meat with it. I am primarily a handgun hunter (and it wasn't many years ago the anti's were whining the same nonsense about them- "They're only good for killing people!"), but I'm gonna set aside some time to hunt with a MBR.

Anybody care to join me?
 
Some famous Ivory hunter used a 'rifle' called "Baby" that fired a 2 pound explosive shell.

Even in the days before reliable powders and vast numbers of game... I would still consider that "unsporting".
Dunno 'bout that. IIRC, it was common to bleed from the nose and ears after firing "Baby." I don't think it was a 2 pound shell, it was a 2 bore rifle (i.e. a half pound lead ball is bore diameter). On the other hand, with a bore that size a bullet/shell of any length would be pretty heavy.

I also recall reading that one of the fellows who hunted in the black powder days when rifles were measured in bore instead of caliber was quoted as saying that firing those monsters ruined his health.
 
The FN is a fairly common elephant culling weapon in some parts, however a game ranger is only allowed to use this type of service weapon after he has demonstrated that he is competent in the art of the brain shot from any angle.

This usually occurs after a 100 or so elephants to the neophytes resume. At wich point he is allowed to leave the issue .458 at camp and kill that cull pachyderm with his service rifle generally an FN in 7.62 nato.

As far as the 7.62X39 there have been many elephants murdred with an AK. thee was an elephant killed in ZIM a year or so ago that had 20 (twenty) healed over ak rounds in his lung.

As far as The Bell thing goes and the under caliber rifle please see my signature.

Now as far as hunting with a military type weapon VS a sporting rifle. Many sporting rifle started life as an "assault" rifle. Please be my guest I have no problem with that as long as the weapon meets the current game regulations. And I'm sure that more than one elephant has been molested with an RPG. That is really not what hunting is all about is it?
 
Ethics.

Webster's definition: The disipline of dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation.

IIRC, Art's definition: What you do when no one is watching. (And ... conscience: how you feel about it, later.)
 
An RPG is awkward and bulky, and difficult to get past Customs.
Is that the voice of experience? ;)

It's not unusual for game scouts in places like Zimbabwe to carry AKs. And it's common knowledge that a LOT of animals - including elephant - were poached using AKs. But firing half a magazine into an elephant's side, figuring he'll die SOMETIME, isn't very sporting. And game scouts are primarily looking for rogue animals of the two-legged variety.

In his book Mahohboh, Ron Thompson writes of using a military SLR (i.e, a FAL variant) to cull elephants. He seemed to like it, especially when going into a herd situation. The 20 round magazine allowed a very few experienced men to take out a whole herd in short order.

He also wrote of its limitations, and said that mature bull elephants - MUCH bigger than cows - were difficult targets for such a small round. He survived one encounter with an angry bull using his skill, experience, and (reading between the lines) more than a little bit of luck.

Thompson culled thousands of elephants in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe during his career . . . since he survived to retire, I think it's safe to assume he knows something about what he's talking about.

I personally would not care to hunt elephant with a FAL.

Anyway, I see no ethical problem with using an AK, FAL, etc., to hunt appropriately-sized game where legal, as long as the hunter himself behaves ethically. (i.e, respects property, strives for humane, one-shot kills, obeys bag limits, etc.)
 
Read the chapter about elephants in "Death in the Long Grass", and then decide your caliber.

Richardson
 
Whenever you read about Arfican hunting most likely you encounter all the same calibers like the .416 Rigbybut you seldom read anything about other calibers like the .416 Rem magnum, .416 Weatherby magnum, 45/70, 45/110, 45/120, 50/70, .444 Marlin, .458 Winchester Magnum et cetera.

These pique my interest especially the shorter cartridges such as 45/70 and 444 which can be loaded with energy a little better than 30-06 levels.

May questions, any answers?
 
Oleg, there's a line one walks between keeping it sporting and putting the animal down with dignity and minimal suffering. Rocket-Propelled Grenades are not sporting, IMHO.

I think RPG to an elephant would be with minimal suffering. Shaped charges can penetrate thick armor, and elephant hide is pretty thick in places. It would be a non-traditional weapon against elephant, is all it really is.
 
John Plasters book on SOG operations in Vietnam describes an elephant taking a 40mm grenade to the leg and then going on a rampage.
I guess shot placement is everything even when using HE.
 
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