7.62x39, really big and really small

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cosmoline

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
23,646
Location
Los Anchorage
OK, I've got my sturdy new CZ and I'm going to pursue a long-planned effort to probe the limits of the 7.62x39.

The first load is at the low end. I'm loading .308" Speer "plinker" rounds over 8 grains of Unique pistol powder. This is to be a 25 yard squirrel/ptarmigan/grouse/hare load to replace the .22 LR out of the CZ 452. The 452 was more than accurate enough, but on more than one occassion I nailed a big grouse or ptarmigan COM only to have it take off. I even lost one, though it's possible I only shot him through the feathers. The .22 Mag isn't a good option as it tends to tear the bejesus out of small game and is more of a varmint round. This load is based on pretty sound data on lyman cast bullets and others in the 100-110 range. The "plinker" rounds are cheap semi-jacketed lead rounds with an odd shape that aren't supposed to expand. They'll be moving at around 1,500 fps with this load.

The second load is more experiment and more dangerous. I've loaded 174 grain Woodleigh .312" bullets over 17 grains of IMR 4198. I'm basing this load on a mix of data and math, since there is no reliable published or on-line data for bullets in this weight range. At 150 grains 21 to 23 grains of 4198 are suggested and at 125 grains 23 to 25 grains. At 162 grains cast lead, 17 grains are advised, so that's the low end I'm going with.

My load is well within OAL specs and the ogive also seems to be low enough. The load is not compressed.

Velocity should be about 1,850 fps if my math is right (it probably isn't). That puts it within the published parameters for expasion on the woodleigh slugs for close range shots.

I'll let you know if I still have all my fingers tomorrow :D

This is NOT the most extreme efforts at heavy bullets with the x39. The accuratereloading guys came up with these results, going all the way up to 240 grain bullets bigger than the cartridge itself!

http://www.accuratereloading.com/76239.html
 
To my knowlege, .308 bullets are a little small for 7.62x39 barrels. Most of my experience is with SKS rifles so your gun may be different. Have you slugged the barrel?

Bill
 
Sounds almost like your trying to make a poor-mans 300 Whisper... :)


do some research on the use of magnum pistol powders with the Whisper and see if the case volumes are about the same between the 300 and the x39...you might have a neat little number there...


D
 
I'm actually trying to keep the 174 grainers supersonic and viable for hunting. They're at the outer limit of weight that can still stay supersonic in that cartridge. I'll be happy if I can replicate 30-30 ballistics for the load, as it will debunk all the internet pundits who've claimed the x39 can't equal the .30-30 at 150 or 170.

As far as the .308" plinkers, some tests done on this forum indicated the accuracy difference between .308" and .311" is nominal. And since these are to be 25 yard small game killers as long as they keep a good group at that range I don't care. They're about half the price of most .308" rifle bullets.

A whipser load would be more like a 200 grainer over a few grains of Unique or 2400. Those are interesting loads, but not terribly practical outside of spyish wet work.
 
They (the wisper rounds) are cool to look at while being lobbed in at 100:D
The only "wet work" I wanna get into is over the side of the boat:neener:
Keep me posted, you may save me a fortune on a 30br set-up;)
 
Hey Buzztail...why don't you get a nice Contender Carbine setup with a 300 Whisper 18"?

Of course, you can get around the SSK meanies by asking for a 300-221 barrel. :D


Subsonic rounds could be quite usefull I think for a rifle of that caliber, so to speak...lower report and if its used in an area where there is the possible danger of a bullet traveling out of the designated hunting area...


I would look into loads possbily using IMR-4227 or 2400...all the way up to possibly RL-10x or AA2230...

And if you use just stick powders, then you won't have to worry too much about muzzle flash, either...

D
 
Do you plan on feeding the heavy rounds through the mag or are you going to single load them. I,ve found that you can go with a somewhat longer C.O.L. than spec and still fit and feed from the magazine, but the rifles throat would allow for yet even longer cartriges :evil:
 
Cosmo says:
<As far as the .308" plinkers, some tests done on this forum indicated the accuracy difference between .308" and .311" is nominal. And since these are to be 25 yard small game killers as long as they keep a good group at that range I don't care. They're about half the price of most .308" rifle bullets.>

I know the heavy load is probably of more interest to everyone but don't forget to let us know how the .308 bullets work out. Always willing to try something cheaper :)

Would .308 work in my MN model 38 carbine (7.62x54R)?

Bill
 
Here are the results:

Light plinker load--ten rounds in two half-inch holes at 25 yards, @ four inches over POA with aim point under the dot not above it. Very nice accuracy considering these are dirt-cheap bullets that are just half dunked in a wash of copper. More than accurate enough for small game at woods ranges. No pressure signs on brass, and the Unique seemed to burn consistently without the need for filler (though I'd need to chronograph it to be sure). However, the load isn't as quiet as I hoped so I may drop it down a notch further to six grains.

Heavy load--First off, there were no pressure signs at all, not even excess primer flow. I think I'm way low on my load. The rounds impact on the center axis in a pretty scattered 2" group at 25 yards. Not exactly stellar. They should have impacted about three inches over POA, but they impacted right on the POA. I think I'm going to start stepping up the powder. Based on experiences with heavy loads in the 7.62x54R and with the 7.65 Argie the round will likely tighten up a bit and start hitting higher at proper velocity.

The other possible problem is the .312" diameter of the Woodleighs. I think the CZ is about .310", so I'm probably getting too much pinching. I'm going to work up some comparative loads usint 170's from Barnes designed for the .30-30. Obviously these aren't spitzers, but like the Woodleighs they're certified to expand at lower velocities.

Would .308 work in my MN model 38 carbine (7.62x54R)?

It would function, but some of the M-38's have bores out to .313" or more from being re-bored after the war. Accuracy would likely suffer.
 
I just bought a Lee TL 314-90 SWC from MidSouth Shooters Supply and I am awaiting it's delivery from UPS.

For those of you that don't cast, that's a 90 grain semi wad cutter tumble lubed at .314. 17 bux and change plus shipping. :)

I anticipate that this little cutie (originally designed for a .32 S&W long) will be a good plinker in my SKS and my .303 Enfields.

Lightly loaded (I currently like and use a lot of BlueDot (YMMV)) I expect to be able to develop a nice "Squirrel Off the Bird Feeder Load".

Yes, I love to whack them little tree rats with a Military Surplus rifle.

Highly accurate and the bullet doesn't go into the next county. :cool:
 
Cosmoline,

I'll run your loads through Quickload if you'll give me the OAL. Your loads with the Woodleigh bullet concerns me a bit. I doubt your bore is over .310. With an oversized bullet you increase your risk of pressure spiking with small powder increases.

My notes show 8 grains of 2400 behind a 174 grain Matchking for a subsonic load. Start at 9 grains and work your way down until you lose the supersonic crack.

David
 
Last edited:
Actually it's .311" not .310" as I initially thought. .312" is well within specs.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by spiking from small increases. Are you suggesting it's better to make large increases?
 
What I mean is XX.5 grains of powder might be fine XX.55 might lock the gun up. But since your gun has a .311 bore it's doesn't matter.

David
 
Last edited:
Latest results:

7 grains of Unique is just fine for the plinkers. They still shoot a bit high but they're fine for testing on squirrel. Whether my truck will make it out to the hunting grounds this summer is another question entirely.

For the 174 grainers, I increased to 19 grains of 4198 from 17. This did tighten the group a bit and raise it about half an inch. The FPS average was only 1740. That's really borderline for expanding even these Woodleighs. However, there are still no hints of overpressure signs. I'm going to take it up another notch and test again. If I can get them moving at 1,900 or 2,000 fps at the muzzle they'll make an excellent black bear load for short range. Yet I may be moving to the outer realm of operation with the fast burning 4198. 3031 may well be better suited for bullets of this weight, as it is with the .30/30. There are capacity issues with 3031, though.

Be warned, though, I'm sure I'm moving out of safe AK-47 or SKS range with these loads. I have no idea what these would do with a gas system or a non-Mauser action.
 
Cosmoline,

How long can you seat bullets and still feed from the magazine?

I think you are right about 3031. You will not be able to get enough in the case to better what you are getting now. IMR 4198 should be good for close to 2000fps. Alliant 10x should do the same. With either powder you should fill be able to almost fill the case up before you run into trouble in a bolt action. Hodgdon H335 or Ramshot X-Terminator may give you an extra 50fps.


David
 
Last edited:
I think your estimate of 2000 fps max is correct. That's where the numbers are headed according to my notes. At about 22 grains 4198 takes up as much of the cartridge as it can without going over OAL. Now, I have some more OAL to play with on this platform but I'm still trying to keep it within 2.2" max. At 2000 fps the Woodleighs are well within their expansion range, and hitting with 1545 ft. lbs. This is shy of the .30/30's 2,200 fps with 170's but uses bullets better than anything a standard tube magazine could deal with.

I'll work up some more loads and fire for effect.
 
only1 nailed it. I worked up new loads with 22 grains--which is about max--and they averaged 2,025 FPS. Still no pressure signs, though recoil was stouter than usual. But unfortunately accuracy is still very spotty, with an inch and a half group at just 25 yards. There's a pretty fast twist on this rifle, so I'm guessing I'm a little oversized with .312" woodleighs and it's messing up the groups. I'm goint to dig around for a .310" bullet in the same weight range and give it a try.
 
Have you thought about using Sierra's 170gr .308 flat point? If you can get those to go 2000 FPS they should work nicely. Plus it's a short bullet so you would have increased case capicity if you seated them as long as posible.

Today I loaded up some 125gr ballistic tips over a gharge of 28.0 grs of AA1680
velocity was an average 2450 fps groups ran about 1.5" at 100 yds I think this will be my deer load for next season.

Oh BTW you are trying to match 30-30? if so bear in mind that 170gr bullets don't even get close to 2200 fps in a 20" levergun 1950fps is more like it.
 
You may try Remington or Speer 180 grain roundnose. They'll take another half grain of powder and should run the same velocity.

David
 
Funny you should say that, I just go through loading up some Speer .311" 180 grain RN's. They actually give me a bit more room to play with.
 
Cosmo,

Two things.

First, remember that the AK/SKSs all work at ~40,000. Your CZ doesn't have the strength of a large ring Mauser, but it'll certainly beat out the AK. Are you measureing the case head diameter (ala Ken Waters' method of pressure watching)?

You can also size those Woodleighs down to .310, ya know.

I guess that's more than two, ain't it.


Cat
 
I'm watching the primers for pressure sign. In my experience it shows there first, with excess flow first and then bursting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top