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Does 3 grains really make that big of a difference?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by armoredman, Apr 22, 2017.

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  1. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Whoa, watch the scurrying, "What the heck is he TALKING ABOUT, IS HE CRAZY?!?!
    Well, yes, ask my wife, she'll tell you flat out I'm nuttier than a Minnesota fruitcake. :)

    The question actually is thusly spake; I have some very interesting 80 grain bullets in the .224 diameter that do not fit the norm, not by a long shot. Now, 99% of 80 gr load data are generated with the venerated Sierra Match King as it incredibly popular...but have to be loaded very long, 2.550, because the MK is 1.066 inches long all by itself. This F Class load, (or so I'm told), has to be single loaded in the AR style rifle because it cannot fit the 2.260 length magazine. Understandable, I am in TUNE with the cosmos on this one...
    Now we get to MY 80 grain bullets, gifted to me by a very fine gentleman to try out and something nagged at my reptilian back brain...so I checked it out. The 77gr HPBT Sierra Match King is .994 inch long, (bullet lengths from JBM Ballistics web page), and the Hodgdon online reloading data I have shows loads with it down to 2.260 COAL...like the guy said on Laugh In..."Very interesting...!" Why? Well, I'd say because these really neat looking 80 grain Spitzer base soft point bullets I have measure out at .92 to .925 inches.
    By now the experienced long time loaders are groaning and saying "Just DO it!" Probably. Because my obvious question here is, how many loaders here would shriek HERESY for using 77 grain data for an 80 grain bullet, down 10% to start, of course, loaded to that mythically perfect 2.260?
    Why, oh why, oh why must I torment thee, and just load it out to 2.550 like the data says...because my BREN 805 lacks a bolt release and single loading the suckers is a pain - I tried with a dummy round.
    Hopefully I made it amusing enough for someone with more .223/5.56mm loading experience than I to chime in. Thank you for any positive and helpful replies. :)
     
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  2. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    IMO there is no problem using the data from a slightly lighter bullet with your 80gr bullet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
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  3. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I liked the first reply you had up better, and I appreciate the info. :) Thank you for your help.
     
  4. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I would compare data for the 77 gr magazine length bullet and the 80 gr single loader and see if I could come up with a place to start with the nameless 80 gr at magazine length. I doubt you will blow up your rifle over 3 grains of lead.
     
  5. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

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    Hahahaha ... :)
     
  6. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    3.0 gr can take a safe load to Over Pressure. Put more bullet into the cartridge (less volume) and pressure raises more. I would be more concern about getting into the lands.
     
  7. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    Philosophically, there are three sorts of Reloaders:
    1) Recipe followers, who are horrified by deviations from the published data.
    2) Experimenters, carefully treading beyond the data, with caution and acceptance of the (small) risks.
    3) Fools, boldly going where wise men fear to tread, who will eventually make an ash of themselves.

    Be #2. Go carefully and pay attention.
     
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  8. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Could you repeat the question? "Remember all responses must be in the form of a question" Alex T

    Hodgdon list 77 and 80 grain data , perhaps interpolate. aka guess.:)
     
  9. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    3 grains of bullet weight really isn't that big of thing but what bullet shape and a 1/4" of seating depth does to case capacity and therefore pressure can make a huge difference.
     
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  10. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Loader type 1.5: Hangs around until somebody looks it up for him.
    Lyman shows 77 gr SMK at 2.26" and 80 gr at 2.55"
    Most powders show charges The Same or within a small fraction of a grain.
    Hodgdon data for the same pair is a bit more scattered but you can select powders with little or no difference between the two.

    So I am even less concerned about the 80 gr magazine length gift bullets.

    The effect of seating depth for a bottleneck cartridge is not obvious.
    An old Vihtavuori pamphlet had some information.
    Pressures run high with the bullet against the lands.
    Seat deeper, you can go a good ways before the reduction in working volume increases pressure more than the freebore effect reduces it.
     
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  11. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    The length on the bullet has nothing to do with OAL. However, you cannot have a 77 grain bullet that's the same length as an 80 grain bullet.
    2.260" is SAAMI max OAL for .223. SAAMI max OAL works well for any cartridge and bullet weight.
    "...77 grain data for an 80 grain bullet..." Will do nicely. That 3 grains will not make any difference. No need to reduce by 10% either.
    I've been noticing a lot of daft stuff on Hodgdon's site. Aside from an excessive OAL they say to use magnum primers with magnum named cartridges with powders they say not to with non-magnum named cartridges. It's like the twit programmer who does the site decided to do that. Lotta daft barrel lengths cited too.
     
  12. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Sure you can. The 77 gr SMK is an "open point match bullet" and there is a substantial airspace behind that little opening.

    Not if you are shooting an 80 gr or heavier boattail spitzer bullet in .223. Mostly used for 600 yard slowfire target shooting, single loaded, preferably with a "sled" single shot adapter in the magazine well. Many of these high-BC bullets would have the mouth of the case hanging out in the open over the ogive if loaded to SAAMI.

    I don't know what kind of 80 grain softpoints the OP came by, but the type was made for the .224 Clark.
     
  13. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    [​IMG]

    This is the slug. I generally fit in Reloader style #1, occasionally in #2, never in #3, because I had to teach myself everything about loading, nobody showed me squat. So I became very careful to do it "right" so I wouldn't become a horror story. So thank you all for the kind words and helpful advice, and Mr Watson, these are the nifty bullets that absolutely nobody can apparently identify.
     
  14. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Wow, three cannelures and a protected point. If you can't kill it with that, you need something bigger than .22.
    Google is not smart enough to search for all those characteristics, I got real tired of seeing who all carried Berger etc.
     
  15. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    IIRC they were manufactured by Vernon Speer some years ago. I sort of remember a fellow reloader had a few boxes of them.
     
  16. entropy

    entropy Member

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    :rofl:
    You have relatives up here that send them to you? ;)

    Sounds a lot like the 165/168 difference in .308; Hunters like 165, target shooters like 168.
     
  17. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    As a matter of fact I do have relatives in Minnesota...I think they're still alive, haven't heard anything in 20 years.
    Jim Watson, that is exactly what I thought. They are very well made, good looking slugs, and deserve a chance to shine. I think if they will fly right they might be coyote magic. :)
    FROGO, thanks for the tip, I'll look it up.
     
  18. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    I believe you stated they were "spitzer base"
    Look "flat base" to me...
     
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