Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

700$$ Fusil? What is the catch here?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by perldog007, Feb 15, 2017.

  1. perldog007

    perldog007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    310
    I am obsessed with the idea of a nice smoothbore flint lock. The trade guns in 20 gauge seem to be popular and I like what I read from folks who use them.
    Most reproductions and a few originals I've seen are well into low four figures. Even 700 bucks is a lot for me to contemplate at this juncture.
    But I would think totally worth it if this was a quality piece. I suspect it's not worth 300 but I'd like to hear from anyone who knows anything about these guns right here http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MFDC.SHTML
     
  2. Stony

    Stony Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Messages:
    730
    Location:
    East Texas
    It does seem a little low to me, considering quality parts to build one can cost you nearly that. It's hard to tell from their pictures, but the woodwork looks like it could be a little rough. If they offer a return privilege, it might be worth picking it up to see if their workmanship warrants the price. The 62's are a fun caliber...
     
  3. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    22,321
    The Middlesex guns are made in India. Do a search and read a lot of pros and cons.
     
    perldog007 and RPRNY like this.
  4. perldog007

    perldog007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    310
    That was what sparked my initial curiosity. When it comes down to a battle between India and Italy that can go either way in my book. The best outdoor knife I've ever owned is a twenty dollar Kukri apparently hand forged by a person with the initials WDA or some such. Incredible value and it will put my made in USA Cold Steel Trailmaster to shame.
    I think what is going to slow me down here is that basically this place seems to import them from a 'proprietary' source then they drill them out and make them functional. Basically a gunsmith and nothing wrong with that but they don't have stock to deliver. They have to get your money, then put you on que to have a non firing gun made firing...
    I really wouldn't mind having a gun made in India with a return policy, which they do have. But I'd rather pay a premium for a nice repro from Uncle Dave that somebody can put hands on and deliver to me in days, not months.
    Maybe when I acquire a Pedersoli flintlock smooth bore of some sort by hook or crook I'll work on throwing my hat into the India replica ring. I'd probably get a non vented one and have it violated locally.
    So at this point, maybe down the road a ways... but looks like I'd maybe even take a Traditions rifle for a first rock lock before going this route... even though I want a smoothbore, I have a Mossberg, I'll get by somehow :D
     
  5. perldog007

    perldog007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    310
    Per Normal, I answered my own inquiry with the googlez and in this case a trip to my local likka sto to query the proprietor who just happens to have relatives from a town in India where gun counterfeiters put Darra Pakistan to shame. He doesn't know much about this company personally but says they have cred... This FB page seems to do more commerce than their under construction website.. https://www.facebook.com/MohanlalKaluramSikligar/ at these prices I may take a chance. I'll try to find out more about this outfit.
    It would appear that the Veteran Arms and MVT simply buy guns from a place like this and double up on their outlay to drill a vent hole and perhaps smooth them up a bit. Since a few folks have commented on MVT flash pans needed more work, I'm thinking these folks drill a hole and double up?
    In any case I'm willing to put out 400 bucks or so and get the vent hole drilled out while I learn to work on the rest of the gun.
     
  6. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,722
    Location:
    Central Florida
    I have no first-hand info (and won't have) on these guns but I have read that the barrels are tubing of some sort and the locks don't spark reliably.
     
    Cooldill and perldog007 like this.
  7. Dog Soldier
    • Contributing Member

    Dog Soldier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    The heart of a flintier is the lock. These are very poor locks in my own opinion. The fizzens I have seen are only surfaced hardened. They do not have patent vents only flash holes. The barrels appear to be made from seamless hydraulic tubing which is rated more to static pressures than the dynamic pressures generated by black powder. These are only my personal observations.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  8. perldog007

    perldog007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    310
    I agree the TVM fowler looks like something I could really love. If I decide to take one of these on I'm looking at it as a project and dealing directly with the manufacturer. Even the Pedersolis look much better. Jermiah Johnson lists a Pedersoli Fusil that looks to be the business. I have a weak spot for some Indian made stuff. My Kukri is a beast in cutting, chopping, slicing, and edge retention. My razor is a Dovo, I'm blue collar but don't skimp on steel. Still that Bud K twenty dollar Indian hand forged Kukri that shipped with no edge at all was an amazing buy. I'm thinking get a pistol to tinker with.. save up for a better long arm but we will see how I feel after coffee in the morning :D
     
  9. Dog Soldier
    • Contributing Member

    Dog Soldier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    I have a TVM 62/20 ga smooth bore. It is a well made and a very good shooter. I have done well with it in smooth gun shoots. This gun has a Green Mtn barrel and Siler Locks L&R triggers. They are period neutral but have nice stocks and architecture. The Siler Flint Lock now Chamber's is very dependable. I would also recommend the Chamber's white Lightning vent liners. :thumbup:
     
  10. Missionary

    Missionary Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Greetings
    You might also want some information about the barrel material. There is a world of difference in the strength of barrels. Were these barrels "Proofed" by a reputable testing center ? Do a little research. There are several good Muzzleloader sites about that have long threads about India produced barrels and Locks.
    Water / Gas pipe has enough strength to hold the pressure of low volume charges (20 grains) of F black powder with just a tissue wad in front to hold the powder in place.
    Add a ball with a healthy charge of 2F with a ball or shot and you now have a pipe that will burst one day. Again.. no "Proof" marks means no testing was done and you just may be the next shooting holding a burst barrel.
    Mike in Peru
     
  11. daboyleroy

    daboyleroy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Ga
  12. LonesomePigeon

    LonesomePigeon Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    163
    entropy likes this.
  13. Cooldill

    Cooldill Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    6,600
    Location:
    Kansas
    I just do not have confidence in the mystery metals and materials used in Indian guns, especially since they are not proofed.
     
  14. Dog Soldier
    • Contributing Member

    Dog Soldier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    If you want a Flintlock, you want a flint lock that works. The percussion cap is much more forgiving. An economy priced percussion is more likely to fire.
    The flintlock locks are far more complicated. The lock on a flint lock must produce and direct the spark. The frizzen must be hardened all the way through. The flash pan must be correctly place as the "Half Moon" location above the pan.
    The first hot gas from a powder explosion is the most intense. The parabolic flash must enter the vent to detonate the main charge. The burning powder in the pan must not enter the vent. This causes a slow and inconsistent "wicking" ignition. The powder in the pan should be to the outside edge and below the vent. The quality locks require very little powder to fire. The flint nust strick the frizzen at about 3/4s of the frizzen. The flint lock is about a balanced geometry.
    The point is, there are no good cheap flint locks.:thumbup:
     
  15. Cooldill

    Cooldill Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    6,600
    Location:
    Kansas
    Very true.

    One good thing about most of the Italian guns, if you do get one with an unsatisfactory lock, there are ftermarket ones made by L&R, Chambers, etc. that can solver the problem.

    With the Indian guns, I don't know of any.

    Also with spare parts in general, not going to be as easy to get in most cases. Look, I know you're excited about getting a fusil and you should be. Just don't get the cheapest one or one that you won't be able to service or make reliable, or even one that is possibly dangerous to fire.
     
    Dog Soldier likes this.
  16. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,958
    Location:
    Virginia
    I think you mean that the vent hole must be placed in the "half moon" or "sunset" position above the pan. In that location, the vent hole would be sealed off from the pan when the frizzen was closed.

    This is probably true from an engineering standpoint, but most of the originals I've seen have the vent hole towards the middle or even at the bottom of the pan. I guess the old-time gunsmiths hadn't gotten the memo. The procedure in priming was to tip the gun to the side, or even tap it, so as to make sure the vent hole was filled with powder. This is exactly the opposite of the modern recommended way of doing it. I guess the old thinking was that the flash was transmitted via a powder train, whereas the new thinking is that the flash "jumps," or goes through the air.

    The difference of opinion here has to do with authenticity versus modern efficiency and reliability. If you are a modern shooter, go with the high vent position and a stainless vent liner. If you are primarily a history buff and reenactor, go with the low vent position and no vent liner. Remember that a certain percentage of misfires is authentic.
     
  17. daboyleroy

    daboyleroy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    Ga
    Withdraw your ramrod and return it to the thimbles of your rifle. Now cradle the rifle in your left arm with your left hand gripping the wrist, thumb over the wrist, muzzle to the left and pointed in a safe direction, somewhat like Fig. C. This position presents the pan and frizzen area for your inspection and manipulation. (Note: if you are at a match, use a position that keeps that muzzle down range, or make sure you stand side ways.)

    Now, set the cock at the first notch (half cock) and close the frizzen down over the feather, helping to hold it in the touch hole. Into the forest you go, looking warily for game or foe.

    We should note here that spit patches were not used unless they were to be fired immediately, such as at a rifle match. A spit-patched ball will leave a rust ring in the bore if it remains in place a few hours.


    Priming: So far, you are loaded but not primed. You spot your game or target. Gently push your frizzen forward and pull the feather out of the touch hole. This will clear the touch hole and may pull a few grains of powder into the pan. Prime your pan, close the frizzen, set the cock at full, aim, and fire.
    From: http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no4/articles/mbo44-2.shtml
     
  18. Dog Soldier
    • Contributing Member

    Dog Soldier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    Well maybe it is a geographical thing. Way out West that is a flash hole. When a vent is inserted it bemes a "Vent". Many fine rifles of the past have "half moon" Setting Sun" etc flash holes. Original flinters were reliable. They fought wars and fed families for 400 years. I have an orginal Brown Bess with a high flash hole. Gun owners of the past are no different than those of today . Many understood firearms many thought they did. :D Good luck.:thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  19. Cooldill

    Cooldill Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    6,600
    Location:
    Kansas
    Yep. Here in Kansas we call it a "spark nozzle." :D

    Just kidding, but we should. :p
     
    Dog Soldier likes this.
  20. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    3,713
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    perldog007 likes this.
  21. Dog Soldier
    • Contributing Member

    Dog Soldier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    Cooldill, Now we know, a Jay Hawk.:D I have pheasant hunted down in Kansas a number of time. A friend owned a farm near Russel, Kansas. We were in a bar one night and Bob Dole came in. :cool:
     
    Cooldill likes this.
  22. Stony

    Stony Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Messages:
    730
    Location:
    East Texas
    Those .62 PRB's can be pretty effective. With a reasonable charge, they just zing through most animals. I've shot deer and hogs with mine and always get a good hole on both sides. DSCN1470 (2017_01_17 16_08_29 UTC).JPG
     
    JeffG, perldog007 and Cooldill like this.
  23. perldog007

    perldog007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    310
    How do you like that rear sight? ( personally my 'camp gun' a Marlin 30/30 has no rear sight.. but that's another forum :D ) That is a beauty. I'm starting to lean towards a cheap flinter production rifle and saving up for a nice smoothbore. The savings from India any way I slice it only make it worth a group buy, with a house that makes small lots... I can get a kit and have a blank inleterized for about the same money. Have some nice walnut about ready to rip... decisions and daydreams. Half the fun ain't it?
     
  24. perldog007

    perldog007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    310
    I'm starting to form the opinion that some of these imports are only good for re-enactors and casual use. I did know a man that had a CVA flintlock he hunted squirrel with, But he didn't use it that often. I do really want a smooth bore though..
     
  25. Dog Soldier
    • Contributing Member

    Dog Soldier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    That is a Fusee De Chase/ Cow's Foot shortened for horse back after 1820. Great story great choice in Rock Guns. Thx for your post.
     
    midland man and JeffG like this.

Share This Page