8.15x46 norm

[Wedge]

A friend of mine has an old rifle that has the marking 8,15x46 norm on the barrel/chamber and also says SYST.AYDY on it. Octogon barrel, some sort of strange custom stock. Sorry no pictures. Set up as a target gun, very heavy.

Nearest I can tell is that the 8,15x46 norm is actually 8,15x46R generally built off of post WWI 8mm Mauser actions. Sporterized and chambered in a non-military round. I suspect that when the barrel was originally made that only Norma was creating the 8,15x46R cartridge so it was callthed the 8,15x46 norm.

I couldn't find any reloading information about the 8,15x46R, what I could tell was that brass could be formed using .30-'30 shells and a 0.323 bullet...of course you would need to size and slug the chamber and barrel before just loading something up for it and in all likelihood the gun will never be fired again.

He isn't a reloader, the gun hasn't been fired in probably 50 years or more and other than an oddity I can't imagine it is worth very much money. It was his grandfathers I believe so it also has some sentimental value to it. From what I have found sporterizing the old Mausers and chambering them in 8,15x46R was common.

If anyone has any other info about these old guns it would be much apprecaited.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sounds like a German Scheutzen rifle.
The "strange custom stock" was likely carved to fit the original owner for target shooting in the offhand position only.

8,15x46 "norm" is probably "normalisiert" meaning a standardized version of the 8.15x46R cartridge. Not Norma, the Germans did not buy ammunition from Sweden.

Syst Aydt is System Aydt, the design of the falling block single shot action. It is meant for target shooting with easy access to the chamber for loading and cleaning. It is only moderately strong, the block actually swings rather than drops and has no backup in line with the bore. Plenty for a target rifle, of course, but not the best for a varmint rifle, as a lot of these looted target rifles were converted to.

Most of the 8.15s I have seen have been on single shots like yours; the converted (or purpose built) Mausers are actually less common in my part of the world.

There are really two sorts of 8.15x46R ammuntion. The target load for rifles like yours and the Serviceman's Rifle on full size Mauser military guns is a lead bullet and a light powder charge. When there were a lot of Scheutzen matches, you could buy (in Europe) bullets in a range of weights and diameters and various premeasured powder charges in little nitrated silk wraps so you could work up a load for your rifle with a minimum of equipment.

There is also a hunting load with a softpoint bullet at the top end of the round's velocity, about like a .32-40 Winchester. They were used in some really lightweight single shot rifles and in slimmed-down bolt actions. The last one I saw was of the latter type, a rather plain gun then known as a Forester's Rifle. Something for the gamekeeper to carry and shoot roe deer not suitable for big money trophy hunting and varmints.

Dollar value is considerable if it is in good shape and you can get it in front of somebody who is interested.

If you and he wanted to clean it up and shoot it just to say you had, Buffalo Arms has ammuntion. It is expensive because it is in reformed brass, probably .30-30, and handloaded with cast bullets. Serious shooting would, as you say, call for setting up to make your own brass and cast the right bullet.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4103.htm

 

[Wedge]

Jim, thank you for the information! My buddy will be happy to finally know what it is!

 

[Vaarok]

Yeah "not worth a whole lot" is completely wrong, unless it's somehow ruined. Single shot schutzen rifles are very high dollar.

And while not tremendously common knowledge, there are two versions of 8.15x46R- there's loaded ammo, and then there's a sort where the bullet is loaded separately, pushed into the throat, and then a weighed little sack of powder is put in a casing and loaded after. Supposedly you can shoot all day with priming and de-priming tools, primers, bullets, weighed charges, and one casing. Supposed to be more accurate than loaded ammo where the bullet has to break free of the neck and jump to the rifling or something. Watson alluded to it, but the way he said it kinda alluded to assembling the components into rounds, rather than the weird procedure I described.

 

[highlander 5]

I believe that either RWS or Dynamit Nobel has new brass check the web sites for both. I've seen the brass in 20 rd boxes at Kittery Trading Post in Maine but can't remember which manufacturer was on the box. Accurate Arms has reloading info as does Cartridges of the World. Check the Huntington web site also for brass.

 

[highlander 5]

Just took a look on the Huntington's web site 8.15x46r cases by RWS are $31.00
a box of 20 plus S&H.

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend of mine has one that he loads with shortened .30-30 cases and .30-30 bullets shot as cast, about .313". He is a bit lucky, the nominal specs for 8.15x46R call for a thinner rim and a larger barrel, but you can't argue with MOA from a setup like that.

Vaarok,
I did not know the European Scheutzen shooters were into breech seated bullets. Although it was (and is) common in US Scheutzen circles. I think digging the Berdan primer out of that one 8.15 case for the next round would be aggravating but they surely would have scheduled the relays to allow for it.

 

[Wedge]

Bringing this one back from the dead

Got a little more information on the gun and some pictures from my friend. Was hoping that it might shed a little more insight into the gun, what it is and if it is worth anything.

-The barrel under the foreguard is heavily pitted in some spots.
-The rifle looks decent however there are small crack in stock near back of the receiver.
-Stampings on the bottom of barrel are (hard to see in photos):

"K" near where the foreguard pin lug is
"B" w/ a crown on top
"U" w/ a crown on top
"c" w/ a crown on top

either "7,7 m/m" or " '/,'/ m/m" probably the 7's are not stamped very well. This would make me believe that it was chambered in some sort of 7.7mm round, even though the other marking said 8.15x56 norm? Could it mean anything else?

"12.11" or maybe "12,11" - guessing that is a production date, December 1911?

"343" - would this be the serial number?

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0AbuHLJk2Zt2L4o

 

[Jim Watson]

Got a little more information on the gun and some pictures from my friend. Was hoping that it might shed a little more insight into the gun, what it is and if it is worth anything.

-The barrel under the foreguard is heavily pitted in some spots.
-The rifle looks decent however there are small crack in stock near back of the receiver.

Pictures confirm my original identification of a System Aydt target rifle. There is nothing to indicate the maker. There were a lot of small shops building guns, some from scratch and some from gunmakers' guild parts. Europeans apparently are not as brand loyal as Americans, there are a LOT of imported and bringback guns with no maker's name. The stock style looks rather generic rather than being carved to fit the owner's cheek and build. It has the rear sight but lacks the large diameter sight disk.

I don't play Internet Price Games, but my friend mentioned above sold his Scheutzen several years ago for $1100. Compared to yours, it showed more use but less neglect. His had a more elaborate stock and the rear sight was complete. The bore condition would be all-important to a shooter. I guess somebody collects these things, but I don't know any.

Stampings on the bottom of barrel are (hard to see in photos):

"K" near where the foreguard pin lug is
"B" w/ a crown on top
"U" w/ a crown on top
"c" w/ a crown on top

I don't know what the K means, it is not in my chart of German proof marks, maybe a factory inspector's mark. The rest are the famous German Imperial BUG proof marks (the third is almost surely a weak G, not a c.) Industrial European countries have government proof houses to test guns built or imported there, with stamps like these to show they have passed testfiring and inspection. These were standard marks from 1891 til 1939 seen on everything from Lugers on up.

either "7,7 m/m" or " '/,'/ m/m" probably the 7's are not stamped very well. This would make me believe that it was chambered in some sort of 7.7mm round, even though the other marking said 8.15x56 norm? Could it mean anything else?

7.7mm is likely the BORE diameter, easily checked at the proof house with a set of plug gauges. The groove diameter will therefore be larger, and will be something near 8.15mm. Near but not exact. From what I have seen and read, these guns vary a lot, depending on the ideas of the maker for getting best accuracy. My friend mentioned above shot unsized .30-30 cast bullets, probably about .311", with excellent accuracy in his. If you plan to shoot it, be sure to slug the bore and measure groove diameter to know what bullet or mould diameter to get.

"12.11" or maybe "12,11" - guessing that is a production date, December 1911?

"343" - would this be the serial number?

Could be, I just don't know.

 

[Wedge]

Thanks Jim! Very much appreciated.

 

[SRG]

It just so happens that I have one of these actions - actually just the hammer, spring and block - in my shop right now. The customer wants me to make five springs for his gun and for a friend who also has one. I'd much rather find the springs before having to make them as I am up to my neck with other jobs. Does anyone know if these springs (hammer) are available someplace?

 

[sportclay]

I am posting this a bit late. I am new to this forum. I have been shooting this cartridge for close to forty years now. No 2 chambers are alike in these rifles. grove diameters vary from (in rifles I have / or have owned) from .315 to .323. some barrels are proffed and rifled for jacketed projectiles some cast and some are breech seated stop ring bullets. One thing they all have in common is that they generally shoot extremely well. Most target rifle bores are well cared for. I have a double rifle chambered in 8.15x46R and the bores are the same but the chambers are slightly different requiring FL resizing. Rarely do I FL sizeany of these cases. Rws If you can find them (buy as many as you can) last forever in this low pressure round. Hawk bullets makes custom diameter soft jacketed bullets. that make this a decent short range deer killer.
\ gotta run

 

[Jim Watson]

I have a double rifle chambered in 8.15x46R

Ooh, I bet that is a little jewel, please show pictures.
A double rifle you could actually shoot without getting pushed around like my friend's .450 BPE does.
I got close to buying a Manton .32-40 double about 15 years ago. A British name on a German action in an American caliber. But I am not a deer hunter so I concluded I did not need another centerfire plinker.

 

[sportclay]

I have a number of doubles this is the wimpyiest(is that a word?) The smallest bore rifle is a 6.5x53R, Reilly (london maker) This is a sweetheart to shoot and has accounted for many whitetails. The largest bore rifle is a .475 # 2 NE(.483 bore) Made by Wm. Evans. This will get your attention but is not unpleasant to shoot (standing) it weighs 13 #'s . A friend of mine has a Holland badminton grade in .22 Hornet. Very finicky about what bullet it likes and how you hold it. Cute but useless. some other calibers are 9.3x74R a Kreighoff pre-war, and an Italian built Renato Menegon, an H&H Royal ejector sidelock in 450-.400 23/8" NE, and a wm Jefferies in 450-400 NE 3"jefferies. I wish I had kept all the ones that have passed through my hands over the last 45+ years.

The 8.15 with 22.5 g of IMR 4198 regulates a .316", 150gr. Hawk RN SP in this unnamed guild gun at 1925fps. It is proofed for jacketed [email protected]. proof dates are 9/28 A very simple boxlock with a moderate amount of engraving and 1/2(1 standing, 2folding) leaf express sights 50m, 100m, 150m. @ 50yds it will put 3rights and 3 lefts into 2". I can't see the front bead well enough to even think about using the 150 m leaf. I hunt with this rifle out of a tree stand here in Saratoga county NY. bullet placement!! I have a single shot J.P Sauer stalking rifle in the 8.15 and it will shoot 2" at 100 with 23.5 gr 4198 just a shade over 2000fps. (has a 27" bbl.) This rifle has an old hensoldt 4x scope in claw mounts. it weighs all of 5.5 #'s w/o scope. I have a 3rd 8.15 single built by Heeren it is a .318 bore this rifle appeared to be unfired when I bought it. It had all it's original cases for the rifle and scope. I won't own anything that can't be shot. I have had this about 18 months and haven't had much time to play with it. Don't really know how it shoots yet. Looks promising. I'll have a friend take a few pictures (I don't have a digital camera). My wife almost forced me at gun point to buy a computer.
Wish I had seen that Manton in 32-40! that round became very popular in England and Europe.