870 Negligent Discharge (Farnam)

[Fred Fuller]

As I have said before, you do not want to have an accidental/negligent/unintentional discharge with ANY firearm, but most certainly not a shotgun. Shotguns are intended to make big holes in things, or lots of holes in things, and they do exactly that. Be certain you make holes only in things you intended to perforate... .

Stay safe,

lpl
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http://www.defense-training.com/quips/23Apr04.html

23 Apr 04

Shotgun ND, from an LEO friend on the East Coast:

"Our agency carries shotguns (Remington 870s) mounted behind/above the driver's head, on the cage. Last week, one of our patrol officers was on normal patrol. As he waited at a stoplight downtown, a finger on his free hand made its way into the trigger guard. The shotgun discharged. The 00 buckshot round blew out the passenger-side window, and buckshot pellets flew down a side street. Fortunately, there were no injuries, and property damage (other than our patrol vehicle) was minor.

This officer had been, of course, properly trained in the use and storage of the shotgun, but shotgun training here has been lax the past few years. Supervisors have failed to emphasize how important it is to check all emergency equipment at the start of the shift. As a result, officers merely accounted for' the shotgun, rather than inspecting it as they know they should.

It took this public ND to shake up everyone here sufficiently so that we are now taking shotgun training and procedure seriously once more. We were lucky. We got a relatively inexpensive 'lesson.'

It is easy to let important things slide in this business. Excuses are legion. Our department paid a small price for this "reminder." I hope and pray there won't be a 'next time!'"



Lesson: There is no "right way" to do a wrong thing. Firearms are unforgiving. NDs are inexcusable. We carry guns in a high state of readiness, constantly. There is no substitute for correct training and constant, rigorous supervision. We need to either take care of business, or get out of business!

/John

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Good Lord.

If you gotta keep your fingers occupied while at a stoplight, pick your nose.

That's what I do.

Jim

 

[FPrice]

I wonder if his ears ever stopped ringing?

 

[Delmar]

I'll bet the patrolmen's underwear was a complete writeoff, and the hazmat unit got a workout!

 

[Blue Line]

Is dept. policy to carry a round in the chamber with the safety off and the gun on cock?
Just curious because what we term as "gunbox" condition is - the gun off cock, bolt closed on an empty chamber with safety off. Each shift inspects the gun and "gunboxes" it, check it Check it TWICE.

 

[Black_Talon]

Isn't it standard police procedure to carry the shotgun in some sort of an electronic lock mechanism that covers the trigger/receiver?

 

[0luke1]

Where on the east coast? Must be down south.

Everyone I know up here is busy eating something, drinking something, tuning the radio and smoking a cigarette at stop lights. Who the heck has the time to be playing with a trigger?

 

[pauli]

you know, i'm glad they're going for more training... especially if it extends to the hiring manager. >_<

 

[MLC]

Where on the east coast? Must be down south.

Being a fellow from the Northeast I think you should give our officers more credit.
We had a local policeman who not only managed to shoot himself in the foot while chasing bonfire partying teenagers through the woods.
He also added a "speed hole" to the roof of his cruiser with his shotgun.

I live right across the Delaware from a small town in Jersey.
A local cop there allowed her boyfriend(an off duty officer from another township and out of uniform) to hold a gun on two of my friends while she questioned them.
They were walking home from the bar rather than driving drunk.
She also got in so many vehicular accidents that the state nearly took away her license and she got a bike for patrol instead.

 

[Blue Line]

I also think that there are some people who never have handled a gun untill thier hired. Less and less kids these days get to hunt or shoot some cans out back, espescially from major metro areas. Some some people never have had any experience with firearms. Although, thats not an excuse for bad firearms handling!

 

[ruger357]

Firearms are unforgiving, most of the times you don't get a second chance.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Wow! The poor guy must have permanent hearing damage! A blast just inches from his ear inside a vehicle!

 

[russlate]

Maybe they should find him a 9mm revolver to carry.

 

[Kharn]

I hope his seat was waterproof.

Kharn

 

[Badger Arms]

The article fails to mention the following:

- Some dolt had to load the chamber.
- Some idiot had to leave the safety off.
- A third retard had to have faild to check that the above two things hadn't happened.
- Of course, the article does seem to blame the officer for wrong-move number four though.

 

[BWC]

What would have been truly priceless would have been to be in the car right behind the officer at the stoplight. What a show !!!!!

At least he wasn't on a multi lane road where he would have been pulle dup next to some one. Keep your eyes out for things like that in the future !!!

 

[greyhound]

Whatever happened to "cruiser ready"?

 

[orangeninja]

Same thing happend at Dunbar Armored in Dallas TX when I used to work there. Driver shot the roof of an armored truck....lucky he wasn't hurt.

Dunbar armored's answer was to remove all shotguns from all trucks rather than have a safety training.


What a great company.

 

[Bob F.]

Watching "COPS", I'm amazed at how much trouble some of 'em have clearing a recovered weapon. Scary.

Stay safe.
Bob

 

[Mannlicher]

ever notice how MANY NDs cops have? We of course, can't be trusted with a gun, but Cops, well........................
Frankly, I don't trust cops with guns. Was not that long ago that the Chief of Police in South Miami discharged his Glock in the station, and just a few weeks back, DEA agent in Miami put a round from his .40 Glock through his leg, while demonstrating gun safety to kids. Oh my !!

 

[Fred Fuller]

Didn't intend this to turn into a LEO bashfest. Just a reminder to everyone here to keep thinking, always, when around firearms. All of us need to remember the Four Rules all the time. That ol' debbil Murphy is a poor choice to serve as a reminder of a mental malfunction.

It's true that where statistics are kept, they generally indicate that private citizens have fewer firearms accidents than LEOs (and, in actual shootings, tend to fire less rounds and get more hits). FWIW, I believe the primary reason is that most private citizens who carry are "gun people," and most LEOs are not.

And I say 'citizens' and not 'civilians' because LEOs are not military and are therefore civilians too (as well as citizens). As the good Colonel says, precision in speech is a quality to be cultivated.

If you spend enough time around firearms, something WILL eventually go wrong. Following all the four rules, all the time, is very likely to mimimize the ill effects when it does. There are two kinds of shooters- those who have, and those who will, if they stay at it long enough.

I am one who has. Here is the complete catalog:


1) As a teenager, loading a Ruger Bearcat (single action .22LR revolver) in the field, the hammer got away from me as I was lowering it onto an empty chamber. But the cylinder had not locked up, and the chamber under the hammer was not empty after all. The muzzle was pointed downward and the round struck the ground with no harm done. There was no one else around.

2) Had a little Sterling .22 pistol slip its sear and go full auto on me when I dropped the slide to chamber the first round from a freshly inserted magazine. This was at the local gravel pit, there were other shooters around. All rounds discharged downrange and were contained by the berm. It did it again later with a replacement sear in place and that time I field stripped it and threw the pieces far out into the lake nearby. Last cheap pistol I ever bought... .

3) That was good preparation for later in my shooting career when a tired 1911A1 did the same thing... . Again, there were other shooters present and no harm was done (save to my nerves). This one got a new sear, disconnector and hammer properly fitted and was returned to service when it performed in a reliable manner. Glad there were only three or four rounds left in the magazine when it ran away... .

4) I once helped a friend who was unfamiliar with guns in general get a scope mounted and zeroed on his brand new in the box Marlin 336 in .30-30. We mounted the scope in the gravel pit, set the eye relief for his needs, and he asked me to do the initial shooting to zero it. We were using the hood of my old Toyota pickup as a bench, both of us standing in front of the open passenger side door. A target had been set up at 25 yards. I loaded one round into the magazine and racked the action. The gun discharged and I almost dropped it (actually almost threw it down).

The muzzle was pointed straight up and no harm was done, again save to my nerves (and his). As near as I could tell, a piece of packing material or the like had gotten into the action and released the hammer as soon as the lever was fully closed. I took it apart and there was foreign matter in the action, we cleaned it all out and reassembled the action before we went any further. I had inspected the bore but had not thought this problem would manifest itself.

It never did it again as long as he owned it and believe me I tried to make it repeat the performance. Finger on the trigger, you say? No. Marlins have fixed triggers and running the lever with your finger inside the trigger guard will get it speared for you. No fun there. My finger was straight and outside the trigger guard when the gun fired. The reason my friend asked me to help him was because I hunted with a 336 also and was accustomed to the gun.


As a result of this I am very muzzle conscious and very conscious of the condition of the firearm if it is being handled in my vicinity. Unsafe and careless manipulation of ANY firearm in my presence makes me very unhappy. I either announce my unhappiness or leave pronto.

I post this sort of thing as a reminder, to all of us, to be careful- please share any similar items you run across. It's the only way we can all

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

 

[Bob F.]

yrs ago had a hammer slip from under my thumb as I attempted to lower it. Was cradling the gun in my left palm, pretty good powder burn! Muzzle was pointed at the ground.

Flipped the safety off an old bolt-action 20ga and it went off, again into the ground; darned near got the fa-in-law's beagle, though. Chambered another round and flipped the tang safety off. Nothing happened. Thumpped the side of the stock and it went bang! Tore it down right there in the grass and stretched the coil spring out (trigger spring, I guess), no more problem but was real careful.

Checked the chamber on a PPk, then tried the trigger-bang!!! Hit the tile-over-concrete floor, through the sheetrock wall and into the back of a pop machine in the next room. Hadn't pulled the slide far enough to see the loaded mag, but far enough to strip off a round. Oops!

I'm just a civilian!

Stay safe, and watch that muzzle!!!!!!!!
Bob

 

[0luke1]

My favorite muzzle story is from a black powder shoot. Guy had a misfire on his flintlock, turned the rifle around and looked down the barrel!

Considering the round did not have a headlight, I'm not sure what he thought he was going to see.

The range master sent him home.

 

[ShaiVong]

0Luke1, obviously he was looking for the light at the end of the tunnel!


I never pull the trigger on an empty chamber in an SG to release the slide. It just seems like a really really really bad habit to me. I always press the release.

I had a ND with my Glock once as I was drawing it from my holster. Scared me so damn bad I didnt even pick it up for a month. Still don't know how I managed that.

You think it riled me up, you should have seen my wife sitting in the car next to me :banghead: .

I had an ND with a browning auto 5 when I was about 14 while bird hunting. Shot the ground about 4 feet infront of me while I was walking.

Not bad, a good 8 years between ND's. Hopefully its a geometric time interval

 

[mfree]

Hrmm, NDs.....

I've had two. Both were totally my fault, and both were the fault of poor trigger control.

The *very first* shot I ever fired landed about 2" from my left foot, when I was ~7 or 8. My dad had taken me out to an empty field in the woods behind my grandmother's place... truly the boonies. it was some semiauto .22LR rifle, i was too young to remember. I was slight, and it felt so heavy because I was trying so hard to keep it steady and aimed at the milk jug.

I felt I wouldn't hit, so i relaxed, stood up, and let the gun down.... when it's weight pulled it down and my finger was still on the trigger. *pop!* Dad forgot to mention that part about keeping my finger out of the guard, but he sure mentioned it then Scared the hell out of me, too.

The second one was "safe"... I was doing rapid-fire target work at the indoor range and got a little ahead of myself, fired a round into the ceiling about 10 yards downrange. I hadn't yet been taught/learned to hold the trigger down until you're back in the sight picture after a shot.

I am absolutely *anal* about clearing guns when i pick them up for any purpose, especially dry firing. Mag out, ensured empty, lock slide back, look through mag well to see light, stick finger in the breech, *and* point muzzle at light and look through breech. All ammo in boxes in cabinet, nothing out loose that could jump in when I'm not looking. For that matter, when I found a sharp edge on my walther P22 at the top of the ramp and was fixing it, i was *extremely* wary when I hand cycled a mag through it to make sure I'd gotten rid of the problem. I think I checked the safety 5 times before I started and had my finger where there was no way in heck I could even brush the trigger...

heh, haven't even had a chance to fire the walther yet, just acting on advice...