But No One Ever Uses 'Select Slug' Drills In Real Life... Right?

[Fred Fuller]

I managed to miss checking John Farnam's quips and quotes for a few weeks, or I would have seen this earlier.

There are those who avoid the ammunition choice decision completely and just use slugs in their fighting shotguns all the time. There is in fact something to be said for that. For those of us who like to have buckshot available as an option, it is critical not only to pattern the load of choice at various ranges, but also to practice the skill of range estimation.

Without being able to estimate relatively short ranges with fair accuracy, there is no way to know what is in range with buckshot and what is not. Buckshot can have a surprisingly short effective range, depending on the patterning ability of the gun and load. And no matter what, you still have to be able to HIT with whatever load you fire, if you are to deliver terminal effect on target...

lpl/nc
========

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/15June08.html

When are we ever going to use this technique?

15 June 08

This from a friend with a State Training Academy. An example of, "When it' s least expected, you're elected!"

"Two of my rookie students got into gunfights over the last two weeks, one in the City, one in the County. Both used their issue Remington 870 shotguns, and both were compelled to swap from buckshot to a slug in order to complete their missions:

In the first case, my officer, responding to a domestic dispute, returned fire after being fired upon by the male suspect, armed with a pistol. After firing a single round of 00 Buck at the suspect, without apparent effect, my officer concluded he was out of range.

As he had been trained, he quickly and deftly swapped out to a slug (you call it an 'Ammo-Swap.' We call it a 'Select-a-Slug'), remounted the shotgun, and pressed off a single shot. The slug struck the standing suspect (range 25m) high in the center of the neck, just under his chin. Suspect was DRT, nearly decapitated. At least one of the buckshot pellets had also hit him, but failed to take him out of the fight.

The second officer was responding to an armed robbery. As he exited his vehicle, he received rifle fire from a single suspect using a bolt-gun (Rem M70, 308). As our officer ran to cover, using his 870, he fired once at the suspect, again with 00 Buck. No results.

Once behind cover, this officer also employed the Select-a-Slug option, and subsequently put a single slug through the suspect's sternum. Range was 20m. This suspect was also DRT!

Both officers called me to let me know they were okay and how much they appreciated their training.

So much for, 'Oh, come-on! When are we ever going to use this technique?' comment during range training!

Two in one week!"

Lesson: In much of what passes for "training," we spent entirely too much range time doing all those things we're already good at! Techniques and routines that are important, but are, by their very nature, awkward and clumsy, are seldom exercised, because, of course, we all want to look good.

Well, [those] who consistently "look good" on the range are obviously not challenging themselves and need to re-evaluate the worthiness of their ambitions!

Single-handed shooting, single-handed reloading, long-distance pistol shooting (15m-40m), shotgun speed-loading and ammunition swapping, retention and disarms, low-light shooting, transition from main pistol to backup, and from backup pistol to blade are all important components of every Operator's repertoire, but are not exercised nearly as much, nor as often, as they should be.

Savvy instructors at this particular state institution insisted students learned, and repeatedly exercised, ammunition-swapping with their 870 shotguns, despite all the whining!

We instructors are not always popular with our students (nor should we be!), until something like the foregoing happens. Our reward comes when our student is alive and well, and is able to tell us how much he appreciates us not listening to all his whining and driving forward anyway!

/John

 

[Dave McCracken]

Amen. I've seen too many folks at the range staying within their comfort zone. That means their comfort zone always stays the same.

We need to push ourselves to our limits and past. Then our limits expand.

 

[buzz_knox]

I believe these situations are why Master Awerbuck questions running buck at all. You have to aim the shotgun anyway, so why not start out with slugs?

 

[Snarlingiron]

Excellent. The shotgun course I took emphasized loading and ammo change drills.

They have a final drill called the Jungle Run. Soft sand jeep trail through the Texas scrub brush. There are pepper poppers hidden everywhere. As you see them you have to engage them and take them down.

First run, students were told to carry buckshot only.

On the second run, we were told to carry whatever ammo we thought we might need. I carried a pouch of 00 buckshot, and a pouch of slugs. Sure enough after engaging a couple of targets, I rounded a corned and there was a popper in the middle of the road about 50 yards away. I sprayed a buckshot, took cover, changed to a slug, took a knee, and took down the distant target.

Now I am not equating this with the experiences of the officers in John's quip, but it did demonstrate very clearly a couple of things.

1. This is a very good skill to know and practice.
2. The shotgun is not necessarily just a close range weapon.

It is a skill I hope I never have to use, but one I am glad to have.

Those that are serious about the shotgun as a defensive tool should learn it.

 

[jlbraun]

Most efforts to find incidents of select slug being useful in real life turn up nothing. It's really rare. As I recall, this letter was penned in response to forums full of police and military being asked if select slug had ever been used to their knowledge and getting no responses.

 

[Fred Fuller]

why not start out with slugs?

Good question.

There is something to be said for that as an approach- I know people who believe in that approach. I also know people who don't necessarily agree with it, also for good reasons.

I can tell you why I still prefer to have buckshot in the magazine and slugs in the Sidesaddle. Other folks may not agree with me, that won't hurt my feelings. First of all, I've had Louis' shotgun class. I am most certainly not saying that I am smarter that he is (his line in class is that he's not smart enough to keep up with two kinds of ammo). I am certainly not saying that I am better qualified than he is with a shotgun- nothing could be further from the truth.

I prefer buckshot in the gun because slugs are the Energizer Bunnies of shotgun loads- they just keep going and going. That is what I WANT from a slug, if I want one that is. That is why I keep slugs on the gun, and that is why the slugs I keep on the gun are Brenneke KOs. I want a hard lead slug that will punch full diameter holes and keep going and going.

But I don't ALWAYS want slugs in the gun, because I may want the load to stop in the target. It's possible to get shoot-through with buckshot at close range- but it's less likely than with a Brenneke. And 00 eventually stops sooner/closer than slugs, whether it hits anything or not. Sometimes that's an advantage, sometimes it's a disadvantage.

About the first thing Louis said in class was that the shotgun is a thinking person's weapon. So you have to think, if you are going to ge the most out of a shotgun as a defensive weapon. Shotguns are versatile mostly because the ammunition available for them is very diverse. Diversity = complexity. Complexity can lead to confusion, without thinking and training and practice.

I want buckshot in the gun because if possible I want to inflict multiple wounds with one shot. Multiple wounds delivered simultaneously are more apt to stop an adversary. Stopping an assault is the reason for the whole drill anyway. Why not use what is more likely to produce the desired result, in most forseeable situations?

Note the ranges referred to in the two cases reported above- 25 meters and 20 meters. I have long preferred tight-patterning shotguns and loads when using buckshot- not because I want to push the range at which buckshot is used as much as I want to have buckshot that patterns effectively at its maximum ballistically effective range. My arbitrarily selected maximum range for buckshot for years now?

25 yards.

Of course that is mere coincidence given the cases quoted above. It means little, essentially. But I know what a humanoid target looks like at 25 yards. I can reasonably estimate range at relatively short distance.

And I too can perform a 'select slug' drill on demand. I sincerely hope I never have to do it under fire... it's bad enough doing it on the flat range in front of 20 plus classmates while getting yelled at by Louis.

lpl/nc

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Can anybody elaborate for us the method used to select a slug, as taught in the above-mentioned classes?

 

[buzz_knox]

And I too can perform a 'select slug' drill on demand. I sincerely hope I never have to do it under fire... it's bad enough doing it on the flat range in front of 20 plus classmates while getting yelled at by Louis.

Remembering the experience of doing this in Durham (where you and your bride did quite well, if memory serves) is why I started wondering about running with slugs primarily. Of course, I still have Ranger buck in the 870, as at HD distance, it essentially acts as a slug anyway.

 

[RyanM]

I prefer buckshot in the gun because slugs are the Energizer Bunnies of shotgun loads- they just keep going and going. That is what I WANT from a slug, if I want one that is. That is why I keep slugs on the gun, and that is why the slugs I keep on the gun are Brenneke KOs. I want a hard lead slug that will punch full diameter holes and keep going and going.

Compared to buckshot it is, but I sort of question how true that is when comparing slugs to pistol ammo. Just the weight * velocity looks like .45-70, which is definitely an "energizer" cartridge. But would you want to try shooting a buffalo at 100 yards with a 1 ounce Foster slug, even if you were consistently printing 3" groups at that distance?

437.5 grains and .730 caliber gives you a sectional density of only 0.117. In comparison, a 185 gr .45 is 0.130. 0.117 is the equivalent of a 167 gr .45 or 103 gr 9mm.

Of course, a full power 1 ounce slug is going at 1600 fps, but that also means it's going to expand like crazy on impact with anything.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/12 Gauge Foster Slug.jpg

Fackler found that particular brand of slug expanded to a very impressive 1.1" diameter, and penetrated 14.2". That's the same penetration as the ammo I've got in my pistols now.

Reduced recoil slugs penetrate more because they expand less, but the results still aren't overwhelming.

http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/rem_rr_slug/gelatin_slug_rem_rr.html

But, note the non-standard gelatin calibration. 30" in that stuff corrects to about 26.5" or so. That's really "only" on par with pistol FMJ, which have about a 50/50 chance of exiting in the real world.

The good old Box o' Truth found that full power slugs went through 12 pieces of sheetrock and one just barely penetrated a water jug, and the other bounced off.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Compared to buckshot that's pretty bad (00 "only" penetrated 7 boards), but just about every single pistol JHP tested went through all 12 and vanished. The only exception was a .357 mag 158 gr SJHP that penetrated 9, because the exposed lead tip expanded, and it looks like the core and jacket seperated.

But anyway, it looks like your garden variety full powered Foster slug won't penetrate more than a pistol JHP and a reduced recoil will be more like an FMJ. Neither is likely to penetrate walls much more than a pistol.

Brennekes are a whole different ballgame, but for all around use, Fosters basically turn your shotgun into a gigantic caliber pistol caliber carbine.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Sergeant Sabre,

Methods of performing select slug drills differ among makes/models of shotguns and among instructors as well. The basic idea is ammunition substitution- getting the round that's in the shotgun's chamber out, and getting a slug into the chamber, as smoothly and quickly as possible. I'm going to discuss the 870 as that's what I'm most familiar with- Benelli fans are on their own .

I'm more of the KISS (keep it simple ......) school by necessity. I prefer to do all my loading through the loading port if possible. Louis teaches loading the shotgun at the shoulder without fully dismounting it, letting the muzzle sag until most of the weight comes off the gun and the firing hand and the recoil pad contact can support the gun at the shoulder.

With an 870, it's necessary to have the action closed and the hammer cocked to load easily into the magazine. THE most common remark to students on the line on Day One from Louis- "RUN THE BOLT!" IF you shoot a pumpgun, running the bolt should be reflex.

Loading is done with the support hand without ever looking at the shell or the gun. It's more important to use your eyes to keep up with the hostilities going on around you than to watch yourself load the shotgun. One of the advantages of the 870 is that the front of the trigger guard serves as a ramp leading directly into the loading port. This makes it easier to get rounds oriented properly for loading by feel alone.

One thing to keep in mind is that a shotgun shell will load backwards into a tubular magazine just as well as it will load frontwards. Your fingers have to get educated in order to tell the difference between the front of a shell and the back, plus telling the difference in slugs and buckshot by feel as well.

I habitually load the magazines in HD shotguns one round short, so there's room for a slug first up if the situation calls for it. And I keep them chamber empty, action cocked and safety on. That way I can get whatever is in the magazine up into the chamber easily- either the load of buckshot that's normally waiting first up, or the slug I just slipped out of the Sidesaddle and slid into the magazine, depending on the situation.

I'm not worried about trying to stuff 147 shells into my shotgun at one time, because I can load it as I shoot it if necessary. To quote Louis from the classroom again: "No magazine is ever big enough." There's no sense in trying to make a magazine big enough- just learn to load the magazine you have, on the fly.

So, the bell rings and we need a slug first up, but the magazine is loaded with buckshot- with one space left empty. Bringing the gun to the loading position, we slip a slug out if the Sidesaddle and insert it quickly into the magazine. Hit the action release, run the bolt and voila- select slug drill accomplished. Amazingly enough, the same drill works if there's a round of buckshot already in the chamber- as long as the magazine is not cram jammed full.

Suppose the magazine IS cram jammed full, AND the chamber is loaded with buckshot, and we need to run a select slug drill most rickytick. What then?? Well, we have choices. We can either dump the round in the chamber and make room in the magazine by running the bolt, and then perform the drill as above- load a slug into the magazine and run the bolt again.

OR we can run the bolt back and leave it open, ejecting the round in the chamber, and roll the gun over to the ejection port side, dumping out the shell that's waiting on the lifter as well. Then we can take a slug from the Sidesaddle or pocket/pouch/whatever, dump it into the open ejection port and close the bolt. Different drill, different habits to learn, more complex- but some people prefer it that way.

Either approach dumps not one but TWO loads of buckshot on the ground- doom on us if we need two more rounds at the end of the firefight and have to move away from that position before we get a chance to recover those two live rounds. Given this to consider, might it not be a better idea from the getgo to keep that extra two rounds of ammo in a pocket/pouch/vest/whatever to start with, rather than having to dump it out of the magazine under pressure?

Don't get me wrong- I can't count rounds under pressure, not worth a darn. What I will do given an empty gun and enough of a break is load the magazine till it won't take any more, then quit. Running the bolt is going to download the magazine by one round and load that round into the chamber. Presto- I then have a 'hole' in the magazine for a slug if I need one.

Loading without looking is a basic fighting shotgun skill- I'm told Louis' new line while on the line is, "If you gotta look to find the hole, you're advertising your virginity." There are different methods advocated by different instructors, to cover both 'normal' loading and select slug drills. IMHO the best bet is to train with several folks and choose what seems to work best for you.

hth,

lpl/nc

 

[sm]

Lee,

Excellent thread and I appreciate you posting this, and your follow up replies.

Dave, buzz_knox, as always I appreciate and respect your postings as well.

Folks:

Especially new folks, and those new to shotguns.

Gun fit to shooter is extremley important!
Gun fit encompasses more than just "the gun fits my shoulder and I can reach the trigger".

Police and Military are issued shotguns, and receive training to use that issued gun with its accessories, ammunition, and have a different "protocol" when it comes to having a duty to perform a duty.

Civilians, fall under a different set of "Protocol" most often referred to as ADEE.

YOU have to get a gun that fits YOU.
It does not matter what Police, Military, 3 Gunners, CAS, the Video Game, or the Movies show, or anyone else.

I will not be at your gunfight - Awerbuck.

Gun fit includes, but not limited to, the type of action, (single shot, SxS, pump, semi-auto) and within these platforms, how they each work.

i.e. 870s and 37s are both pump guns for example, still the way they feed, extract is different.

1100s and Benelli's are semi-auto, and again, these actions differ in how they feed and extract.

My point is, it does not make a tinker's damn what kind of shotgun anyone else is using, for if YOU cannot use the shotgun you have, as it does not fit YOU, you are screwed blue and tattooed.

Learn one gun, start with a bone stock one, and get assistance in choosing this gun.
Leave it alone, except for tweaking the physical aspects of gun fit.

Then go see Awerbuck, Cain, Givens, whomever, and learn your gun, ask the trainer/ instructor for assistance.
Show up with a willingness to learn and be honest.

"I am new to shotguns and Steve and I found a good used Wingmaster, and all we have done is tweak the fit, add a Pach Decel recoil pad, and all I have is this 26" plain, fixed, IC barrell..."

Or.

"...Steve and I found this 1100 in 20 gauge, with a 26" fixed Skeet choke..."

These students, will shoot light target loads, they will do 25 or more repetitions every day, in correctly mounting gun to face. They learn to become one with the gun.

Slugs and Buckshot are similar, still different. Just getting a box of each, dumping them together, and while reading, watching TV, (whatever) just pick up a shell and get used to the "feel" of the difference of these two shells.

Posting pictures on Internet of Kewl Shotguns will not keep your wife, kids, girlfriend or grandparents safe.

When one is stressed, in fear, fine motor skills erode, and it is dark, one cannot "see" that Red hull or that Green one to tell them which is 00 or slug.

If running a 20 ga, all shells are Yellow in the USA.

You, and yours are depending on you, and those posted pics of guns, with fuzzy dice and curb feelers, with exotic ammunition, you posted on Internet, are not very darn comforting, and your family are not going to be impressed one iota.

I have never, ever had a person that attended a shotgun class with a bone stock shotgun, get razzed or made fun of by a trainer or instructor, never.

Trainers / instructors will share the pro's and con's of all shotguns. The student with a willing attitude and brutal honesty, will be appreciated and respected by a trainer and instructor.

They will listen to you, where you live, any legal restrictions, concerns of apt, house, condo, or business settings, kids, elderly living with you.

They will "fit" that shotgun to you. They will either stick on a shorter barrel on your gun, and/or let you shoot one they have.

Write down dimensions of LOP, cast, pitch, and what YOU need for your task, learned and actually used in a class.

When you get home, and can afford it, set up another gun, like the trainer and instructor suggested, and get to where it is an extension of you.

Serious situation comes up, YOU know that gun, as it fits YOU.
You know that shell is a slug by feel and you know how to get that slug into a chamber and put that slug on target.


Steve

 

[Snarlingiron]

Good stuff, Steve. As usual very good stuff.

 

[Snarlingiron]

Most efforts to find incidents of select slug being useful in real life turn up nothing. It's really rare. As I recall, this letter was penned in response to forums full of police and military being asked if select slug had ever been used to their knowledge and getting no responses.

This begs the question: is there a dearth of incidents because it isn't usefull, or is there a dearth of incidents because the majority of folks are not proficient in the technique?

I don't know what the case is, but it is kind of like saying snapping my fingers keeps the Tigers away...you don't see any do you?

It's just another arrow in the quiver. I pray I never have to use it, but if I do...

 

[Gordon]

I run slugs in the mag and buckshot in the side saddle. I don't want any failures to stop in emergency , but there are some odd situations where less penetration or a pattern might be better (usually on smaller animals!). Then again I live and work outside the city mostly.
I had a hard time in the first 2 Awerbuck classes with the "run the bolt" deal as all those years of trap, skeet and hunting (to a lesser degree) had me standing there with an open bolt after a round of fire.I have lost the "Run the bolt Gordon" nickname these last few years however and now am known in my 60s as "firefight Gordon" for the volume of fire pumped out. I did 72 rounds straight in ITTS's(combined with Louis) "180" drill.- whew! Life is good when Louis gives you a "nice loading technique" word of praise!