9MM carbine

[rhartwell]

Marry Christmas to all of you good people that I have learned so much from.

Am I correct to think that there is really no advantage to getting a 9mm carbine other then just a fun gun? That there is not enough difference in ballistics from a 9mm handgun to spend the money?

Thanks,
Ron

 

[Ed Harris]

The point of a 9mm carbine is not enhanced ballistics, but a low recoil rifle which is easier to hit with a bit better range than a handgun, without the greater danger space and penetration of a battle rifle, which enables use of common ammunition between the handgun and the carbine. This is why hostage rescue teams and counter-terrorism units in some urban areas prefer weapons such as the HK MP5SF / MP5SFA2 Semi-automatic 9mm carbine, fixed stock or similar.

 

[jonnyc]

The above is all true, but there is some velocity benefit, depending on the weapon and ammunition.

 

[Ed Harris]

Only about 10% velocity increase SMG over pistol

In 9mm firing M882 Ball you pick up about 150 f.p.s. firing a 20cm (8 inch) MP5 SMG compared to an M9 pistol, and up to 200 f.p.s. with some ammos loaded with slower powders in the 16-inch HK HK94 carbine compared to the M9. The difference is less than that firing subsonic heavy-ball 147-gr. OSM or commercial 9mm Luger (not +P).

In .45 ACP there is less advantage, the M3 SMG with hardball is only about 50-70 f.p.s. faster than the M1911 pistol and in a 22 inch bolt rifle there is almost no difference because any gain is defeated by additional bore drag in the longer barrel. But the .45 ACP performs better in suppressed weapons than the 9mm.

 

[M1key]

Some data I have compiled:

Ruger PC9 Ballistics: from www.grimjaw.net/ballistics.htm
Rem Golden Saber 124gr +p jhp 1397 1406 1414 1389 1409 1397 1416 1416 1414 1384 avg 1404.2 s.dev 11.736
Speer Gold Dot 115gr jhp +p+ 1544 1643 1629 1653 1650 1641 1658 1652 1657 1620 avg 1634.7 s.dev 34.144
Winchester Ranger 127gr jhp +p+ 1368 1400 1413 1382 1392 1411 1389 1390 1370 1388 avg 1390.3 s.dev 15.004
Rem 115gr jhp +p+ 1577 1595 1568 1589 avg 1582.25
Fiocchi 115gr fmj 1307 1395 1344 1389 1381 1380 1340 1384 1373 1405 avg 1369.8 s.dev 30.151
Fed Premium Hydrashok 124gr jhp 1229 1307 1291 1319 1290 1308 1309 1287 1291 1299 avg 1293 s.dev 24.806
To calculate energy: E = W(eight in grains) * V(elocity in fps) * (V(elocity in fps)/450450).
JA

From GlockTalk: Joe Mamma
Temperature: 40 degrees F
Ammo Description /Product Code /average velocity with G-17 /average velocity with Kel-Tec Sub 2000
Federal Hydrashok 124 gr +P+ JHP (P9HS3G1) 1167, 1321 fps
Federal NATO, 124gr FMJ (M882)1114, 1231 fps
Winchester USA Brand ("White Box") Hollow Points 115gr JHP (USA9JHP) 1149, 1305 fps
Winchester USA Brand ("White Box") Hollow Points 147gr JHP (USA9JHP2) 1020, 1117 fps
CCI Blazer Brass 115 gr FMJ (5200) 1120, 1299 fps
Sellier & Bellot 115 gr FMJ (80166-00902) 1162, 1296 fps
Geco/Dynamit Nobel 124gr (23364-12585) 1129, 1256 fps
Magtech 147gr "FMC-FLAT" (891798-001347) 969, 1096 fps

From GlockTalk: WinstonSmith
A friend of mine in Kentucky just did some chrono measurements on the Keltec Sub2000 and a Kahr PM9 with a 3" barrel. All measurements at 15 ft from muzzle and at 64 degrees F. Here are the results:
Win 147 gr JHP - Five shots through the SUB-2000:
1111 FPS
1139 FPS
1119 FPS
1136 FPS
1130 FPS

1139 FPS - High
1127 FPS - Average
1111 FPS - Low
28 Extreme Spread
11 Standard Deviation

Win 147 gr JHP - Five shots through the Kahr PM9:
938 FPS
923 FPS
910 FPS
934 FPS
915 FPS

938 FPS - High
924 FPS - Average
910 FPS - Low
28 Extreme Spread
11 Standard Deviation


Test-Fire Hi-Point/ATI 9mm Carbine 16 inch barrel

Load
(brand, bullet weight, type) Velocity
(fps) Group Size
(inches)

Black Hills 115 FMJ 1,334 fps 1-1/2
Black Hills 115 JHP +P 1,555 fps 1-3/4
Hornady 115 JHP XTP 1,264 fps 3/4
Hornady 125 JHP XTP 1,221 fps 1-5/8
Winchester 124 BEB 1,194 fps 1-1/4
Winchester 147 SXT 1,080 fps 1-1/2
Winchester 147 SilverTip HP 1,168 fps 1

Notes: Group size the product of 9 shots at 25 yards.

 

[rhartwell]

Wow! there is a good difference. I guess that I will get one then I really did not want to have to worry about to many different calibers. I really thank all of you for your help. When I don't know what to do you my friends have helped me more than once.

 

[eye5600]

There is a comment on the Kel-Tec site (I think) that a shoulder-fired weapon requires less instruction and practice than a hand-held weapon.

 

[chris in va]

My HiPoint is much easier to hit with than my CZ 75. It has a red dot which makes all the difference.

 

[JDGray]

Love my RRA 9mm! Way easier to hit with, and faster follow up shots over a 9mm handgun. At 100yrds it still hits dead on, on my steel shilouette humanoid, and rapid fire! Try that with a pistol

 

[briansmithwins]

Pistol caliber carbines are great training and fun tools. OTOH, it's still a pistol cartridge in a rifle weight package.

I can hit man sized targets with mine at 200 yards, which isn't something been able to do with a pistol. It's fun and a great low recoil weapon to give a new shooter to learn with. It's still the last longarm I'd grab if I needed a gun. BSW

My Uzi, there are many like it but this one is mine,

 

[jonnyc]

Kind of ironic display cloth in the second pic, not to mention the "interesting" barrel length.

 

[briansmithwins]

Kind of ironic display cloth in the second pic, not to mention the "interesting" barrel length.

Yeah, well, it's a good high contrast pattern for taking pics of guns. Fewer problems with overexposure that way.

As far as the barrel goes, the 10.2" handles SO much better than the regular 16" semi-auto barrel. If figure the stamp cost me a case of 9mmP but was well worth it. BSW

 

[tactikel]

In addition to better ballistics, a carbine is MUCH easier to learn to shoot, to hit with. Think why elite units use the: MP-5, UZI, etc. rather than a Sig, Glock, or HK as a primary weapon.

Check out the Kel-Tec SU-2000 in 9mm-it takes Glock 34 rnd mags (makes a perfect addition to a gunsafe that already has a Glock in it!).

 

[jonnyc]

Is 10.2" the original length or did you have to cut down a long one. I lived and shot in Israel a long time, and I MUCH prefer the shorter barrel on Uzis.
Seeing an Uzi on a keffiyah is, at least to me, a disturbing contrast.
Enjoy.

 

[Starter52]

Fun, fun, fun.... and quieter, too. That's about it in my book.

 

[briansmithwins]

Is 10.2" the original length or did you have to cut down a long one. I lived and shot in Israel a long time, and I MUCH prefer the shorter barrel on Uzis.
Seeing an Uzi on a keffiyah is, at least to me, a disturbing contrast.
Enjoy.

It's a Uzi SMG barrel turned down to fit the semi-auto trunnion. I sold the original 16" barrel it came with.

It's not a keffiyah, it's a shemagh, you know, like the Brits wear...

BSW

 

[strambo]

The AR based SBR has really taken over for the MP5. Roughly the same size, better terminal ballistics, better range and less over-penetration than 9mm HPs with the right ammo choice.