Ghost Tracker
Member
So...they want to live as much as I do while knowingly making decisions that lessen the odds of that happening? No wonder I was never drawn to a life of crime. I'd be terrible at it! 
9mm fmj for HD
- Thread starter Michael R.
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There's nothing wrong with ball ammo. It has put plenty of people down in it's time when expanding ammo wasn't even known by common folks. Just remember about the little thing called shot placement, if your confident with your use of JHP than ball ammo is no different in where they should go. I don't worry about overpenetration for the same reasons why the FBI made a statement about it. Page 7.
beeenbag
Member
Basically, yes. Some are driven by drug addiction, some for other reasons. If the will to live wasn't there they would eliminate the whole living thing to start with. Hey maybe a good quality hp could help with that.
Here is a FMJ bullet that completely penetrated a chest cavity. I'd say say this would likely stop someone quite fast. The whole "Hulk-like drug addict bullet sponge" scenario isn't something I see on a high enough basis to be considered a problem.
copyright © 2000 Brandon Bertolli
copyright © 2000 Brandon Bertolli
mdauben
Member
Back in the day, 9mm had a rep as a poor "stopper" compared to the .45 based on the performance of FMJ ammo in each. Modern JHPs are exponentially better than "ball" ammo and in this day and age I would use FMJ in a 9mm only as a very last choice for either HD or SD.
mljdeckard
Member
You cannot ASSUME that it will be fast and easy, that the bad guy will run away, that it will be a short fight, that the bad guy won't be armed, or that he will be incompetent. Anyone who breaks into my house is assumed to be a meth-crazed Terminator droid. I assume that it will be the fight of my life. I assume that if I fail, all of my family will be harmed. If anything better than this happens, I will just be pleasantly surprised.
stonecutter2
Member
If given the choice, i'd pick hollow points because they'll deform easily and lose velocity if they strike something other than an assailant, and if they hit an assailant they'll have a better chance of damaging them/dropping them. There's a reason why police agencies use the round.
Having said that, I don't have any problem with FMJ 9mm as a home defense round. Work with what you have or can afford. And hope you never have to use it defensively.
I understand people's worry that their ammo could fly through walls. And in internet hypothetical land (and I'm sure someone can point to a few scenarios - maybe - where this has occurred in real life), a stray round hits every sleeping child in their neighbor's homes, causing the home defender to now be crippled by legal problems and imprisoned forever because he didn't use a hollowpoint bullet. But I think it's become cliche and overblown. My immediate concern would be saving my life and the lives of the ones I love, in the moment. I wouldn't hesitate for a second in that moment, fearing that some random person 5 walls and 2 houses away might get hit by my bullet. I would just want to stop the threat. As a member of a jury, I would completely feel the same way when judging another - that would either get me chosen or excused from jury duty depending on the lawyer
I'm not saying don't be responsible about where you're shooting, if you have to shoot in your house. I am not condoning being negligent or irresponsible.
What I'm saying is that using a hollowpoint won't prevent potential tragedy, either. A hollowpoint could just as easily hit only drywall and fly out of a house, injuring anyone in it's path next door, or down the street. That is the nature of any bullet, and the reality of modern home construction. We don't live in stone castles, and bullets have a lot of velocity that can carry it a long distance.
Rather than concern yourself over what bullet to use, prepare a plan of what to do in a home invasion. Set up a rendezvous point in the house, a plan of action, a "safe location" for everyone.
Then as part of that plan, envision that if someone must be shot, where those bullets are then directed. For example, my plan:
I hear a "weird noise" at night. I wake up my wife, and I clear the upstairs.
If all is clear, then I tell her to get the baby while i cover the staircase. Covering the staircase means if i fire a shot down the staircase at someone who appears, it will potentially go through: The assailant (hopefully!), the front wall of our house, and into our front porch/the ground underneath. Safe fire direction.
We then retreat into our master bedroom and I lock the door. We then head to our master bathroom and lock that door behind us, and she calls 911 while i cover the door.
If the bedroom door is messed with, kicked, handle jiggled, or I hear anyone approaching our bedroom door, I announce that the police are on the way and i have a gun. If they get through the bedroom door, they have intention to do us harm without question. They are free to loot and pillage our home to their heart's content until the police show up, so long as my family is safe, i don't care.
If they get through the bedroom door, and come to the bathroom door...if i fire at the door or the assailant if they kick open the door, the bullet would go through: the assailant (hopefully!), an exterior wall, and into our backyard which has no one living in that direction for a very long while. Safe direction of travel for the projectile.
Don't let just the bullet type make you think firing a shot is safe. Don't think a FMJ or HP means you're set for HD. Make a plan and think through things.
Consider using your house as barriers to the assailant, and consider if you had to fire, what in that line of fire could get hit by any type of bullet.
Having said that, I don't have any problem with FMJ 9mm as a home defense round. Work with what you have or can afford. And hope you never have to use it defensively.
I understand people's worry that their ammo could fly through walls. And in internet hypothetical land (and I'm sure someone can point to a few scenarios - maybe - where this has occurred in real life), a stray round hits every sleeping child in their neighbor's homes, causing the home defender to now be crippled by legal problems and imprisoned forever because he didn't use a hollowpoint bullet. But I think it's become cliche and overblown. My immediate concern would be saving my life and the lives of the ones I love, in the moment. I wouldn't hesitate for a second in that moment, fearing that some random person 5 walls and 2 houses away might get hit by my bullet. I would just want to stop the threat. As a member of a jury, I would completely feel the same way when judging another - that would either get me chosen or excused from jury duty depending on the lawyer
I'm not saying don't be responsible about where you're shooting, if you have to shoot in your house. I am not condoning being negligent or irresponsible.
What I'm saying is that using a hollowpoint won't prevent potential tragedy, either. A hollowpoint could just as easily hit only drywall and fly out of a house, injuring anyone in it's path next door, or down the street. That is the nature of any bullet, and the reality of modern home construction. We don't live in stone castles, and bullets have a lot of velocity that can carry it a long distance.
Rather than concern yourself over what bullet to use, prepare a plan of what to do in a home invasion. Set up a rendezvous point in the house, a plan of action, a "safe location" for everyone.
Then as part of that plan, envision that if someone must be shot, where those bullets are then directed. For example, my plan:
I hear a "weird noise" at night. I wake up my wife, and I clear the upstairs.
If all is clear, then I tell her to get the baby while i cover the staircase. Covering the staircase means if i fire a shot down the staircase at someone who appears, it will potentially go through: The assailant (hopefully!), the front wall of our house, and into our front porch/the ground underneath. Safe fire direction.
We then retreat into our master bedroom and I lock the door. We then head to our master bathroom and lock that door behind us, and she calls 911 while i cover the door.
If the bedroom door is messed with, kicked, handle jiggled, or I hear anyone approaching our bedroom door, I announce that the police are on the way and i have a gun. If they get through the bedroom door, they have intention to do us harm without question. They are free to loot and pillage our home to their heart's content until the police show up, so long as my family is safe, i don't care.
If they get through the bedroom door, and come to the bathroom door...if i fire at the door or the assailant if they kick open the door, the bullet would go through: the assailant (hopefully!), an exterior wall, and into our backyard which has no one living in that direction for a very long while. Safe direction of travel for the projectile.
Don't let just the bullet type make you think firing a shot is safe. Don't think a FMJ or HP means you're set for HD. Make a plan and think through things.
Consider using your house as barriers to the assailant, and consider if you had to fire, what in that line of fire could get hit by any type of bullet.
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biggameballs
Member
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- Oct 22, 2007
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Just shoot the bad guy between the eyes and your FMJ 9's will work fine.
mljdeckard
Member
And do it, while moving, in low-light, full of adrenaline, wounded, while the bad guy is moving. Mister, I don't know a single thing about you.....but I know you're not that good.
biggameballs
Member
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- Oct 22, 2007
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- 380
Place laser beam between bad guys eyes, if bad guy is stupid enough to move in any direction other then toward the door pull the trigger.
biggameballs
Member
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 380
The only way I see myself ever having to use my gun in self defense is if this world goes to compete chit. In that case quantity of ammo will become much more important then quality. If you want a reference watch the AMC series "the walking dead" LOL.
Ghost Tracker
Member
Gents, we've got ourselves some gen-you-wine Annie Oakleys here! Y'all sound like you know what you're doing. If you act like sound, then it really doesn't matter what ammo you select. Y'all will run that intruder off with your...game face.
CoRoMo
Member
My dad has also kept his pistols always loaded with fmj. But it's because he's cheap and doesn't think that there is any ammo on this Earch that is worth ~$1 per round. Some of his handguns have never seen anything but his handloads, and he doesn't buy hollow point bullets for handloads.
biggameballs
Member
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- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 380
I've watched my fair share of Bruce Willis movies. I know what I'm doing.....
_N4Z_
Member
It would not be my first choice, but I would use it if I had to.
Also, if fmj was the only option I would put more emphasis on head shot practice. Would try and find the flat point fmj over the round ball.
Federal markets an expanding fmj in a very light weight that could be an alternative.
My new little tupperware 9mm holds 17 rounds. That's a whole lot of ball.... ;-)
My 2 cents.
Also, if fmj was the only option I would put more emphasis on head shot practice. Would try and find the flat point fmj over the round ball.
Federal markets an expanding fmj in a very light weight that could be an alternative.
My new little tupperware 9mm holds 17 rounds. That's a whole lot of ball.... ;-)
My 2 cents.
Bobson
Member
I read this argument a lot, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone address the opposite problem. I assume it's because it doesn't happen; but is that actually correct, or just a common assumption?
The question is, what if a JHP bullet expands too much, and doesn't give adequate penetration? It's a possibility, right?
And no, I'm not lobbying for the use of FMJ ammo for SD/HD. I'm just bringing up a point I'm yet to see.
beeenbag
Member
Hp ammo expands when the hollow tip fills with soft tissue which in turn with the force applied by the velocity of the bullet, the soft tissue applies hydrolic pressure outwards causing the expansion. Most hollow points for a handgun round will only expand to the bottom of this pre-formed "crater". Faster velocity rounds will expand further but it is a controlled design.
It's possible.
However, manufacturers have been refining JHP designs for the last 25 years to address the potential for underpenetration, one of the areas of focus has been to design bullets that are not dependent strictly on velocity to expand.
1980's JHP needed to be pushed as fast as possible to perform like we expect our JHP ammunition to, but the consequence of this was loads married to lightweight bullets that already penetrate less than other options in their caliber, and designs which had very small windows between no/minimal expansion and fragmented.
Today's JHP is designed with twenty or thirty years of data on the way bullets work, and research on how to make bullets expand as wide as usefully possible while still penetrating at least the FBI-advocated minimum.
Now we have 147 grain bullets that expand further than any 115 or 124 grain bullets, and still penetrate just fine, and 124 grain bullets that expand like decent .40 JHPs and still penetrate enough, and nobody is introducing new 115 grain loads, except maybe the Critical Defense, which is specifically designed as a limited-penetration load.
That's completely against the old wisdom on how you get an expanding pistol bullet. Today we don't have to compromise on our loads, it isn't a question of an underpenetrating JHP or a marginally effective and over penetrating FMJ.
And I have serious doubts about whether a flat-nosed FMJ is actually going to behave any differently than a roundnose one in tissue. Maybe if it hits bone.
Bobson
Member
Thanks for the explanations, beeenbag and NG VI.
FIVETWOSEVEN
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- Aug 28, 2009
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- 5,146
The 9mm I have right now is loaded with FMJ as one of my go to pistols and it's loaded with FMJ. That's only because I haven't shot JHP from it and I believe JHP will jam with it because of it being a old surplus pistol with a hump in the feed ramp. My main defensive handgun which is a .40 S&W is loaded with JHP as it's a modern design and it will 100% cycle JHP.
rodinal220
Member
For everyday SD/HD I would say most folks would rank it at the bottom."But", for stockpiling for TEOTWAWKI,natural disaster scenarios,I could see using it.Seeing as how many self defense grade pistol rounds are a $1 or more a piece,some folks may not be able to spend the extra $$ on SD rounds,its not like you can't use FMJ to defend yourself.I'm sure two 9mm fmj to center of mass and a head shot will get the job done.
who's paying a dollar a shot for any service caliber JHP? If you have the internet, that's inexcusable. If the mom and pop store down the road only carries twenty-round ripboxes for $20 apiece, buy online. Shipping isn't that expensive, and your choices are unlimited, and you can shop around at any number of vendors in minutes.
My first choice in a defensive JHP used to cost $20/50, forty cents a round. I think it's up to $25 now, but either way it's not so expensive you can't test it in your gun. And if you're only buying one box at a time, save your cash for a month and get it all at once so you don't have to pay shipping on every box and then lament the super-expensive ammunition.
My first choice in a defensive JHP used to cost $20/50, forty cents a round. I think it's up to $25 now, but either way it's not so expensive you can't test it in your gun. And if you're only buying one box at a time, save your cash for a month and get it all at once so you don't have to pay shipping on every box and then lament the super-expensive ammunition.
481
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Maybe he is that good. By your own admission, you know nothing about him. How do you know that he isn't?
What purpose is served by such a harsh post?
I've always enjoyed your input, but in this one instance that I cannot say that.
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