9mm gel test: Sig 115 gr V crown

[chopinbloc]

Link for phones that don't even




Sig 115 gr V crown fired from 4" barreled Glock 22 with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel through 4 layers of denim into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 584.2 fps, 3.3"

Impact velocity: 1,242 fps
Penetration: 14" of gel and 12" of water jug
Retained weight: 115.0 gr
Max expansion: 0.554"
Min expansion: 0.429"


I'll probably test again with bare gel and with denim and a short barrel.

This is just one shot in one test. It is hardly definitive but should be roughly consistent with other tests performed with properly prepared 10% gelatin.

 

[JamieC]

Decent expansion, too much penetration, (per FBI standards). It might be just right in a short barrel. Maybe a bit too 'snappy'. A bit less powder, less velocity, less penetration...

 

[Walt Sherrill]

too much penetration, (per FBI standards).

I've never really understood concern about "too much penetration." I'm not sure there is any such thing -- unless you're using you're using a rifle for home defense and don't want to be inadvertently attacking the neighbors...

The old arguments about transfer of force have pretty much been debunked, and a bullet that stays IN the body hasn't necessarily done more damage than one that has gone on through. The ones that do the most damage are the ones that hit vital spots...

If my bullet (or bullets) goes all the way through, that's just another exit hole for blood, but making him bleed out isn't my objective; stopping him before he stops me is my objective. As I understand it, the whole focus about penetration is to have sufficient force behind the bullet to hit a vital organ (heart, liver, lung) or a part of the central nervous system. If it penetrates too far after hitting any of those targets, who cares?

 

[golden]

If a bullett goes all the way then.....

You may hurt or kill an innocent. Do you really want to find out the consequences of that?

Jim

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If a bullett goes all the way then.....

You may hurt or kill an innocent. Do you really want to find out the consequences of that?

If you're having your altercation in a crowded area, you've got to pay attention to what's behind your "target," but that is probably far easier said than done in the intensity of such a confrontation.

Then too, even the very best and most experienced shooters can take shots that go astray, and there will be consequences then, too. I think THAT second example is a far greater concern than over-penetration.

Case in point: the comment I responded to said "Penetration: 14" of gel and 12" of water jug". Ballistic gel is usually presented in greater than 14" blocks -- (I think 16" is one of the standard sizes) -- so I assumed the information shown was for two different tests, with the results conflated by accident. The round being discussed would have had to clear 16" of Gel and then go through several water jugs. Darned few handgun rounds used in self-defense situations (except, maybe, against Grizzlies) will do that.

And if you'll notice, I also said I didn't want to be taking out a neighbor.

 

[chopinbloc]

No, it was a 14" block backed by water jugs.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I stand corrected on my misunderstanding about the amount of penetration. I find that level of penetration interesting, to say the least.

On the other hand, I've tried to find how water in jugs compares to ballistic gel and can find nothing of value. There seems to be no correlation. (Some folks on another forum [The Firing Line] get the same penetration with .22 rounds through water jugs as .357 magnum rounds fired from guns with essentially the same length barrels...) I was, without having any experience with that medium, giving water jug penetration more value/credit than maybe it deserves.

Concern about OVER-penetration with this round may be valid, but I'd like to see something about how OTHER common/popular SD ammos perform when put through the same test. Then we start to compare apples to apples, rather than apples to what may be kiwi fruit.

SIG seems to feel the round's biggest selling point is the complete and uniform expansion of the bullet, and not that bullet's extreme penetration.

 

[C0untZer0]

I think we go trough this every time with Chopinbloc's test

Its like "26 inches of penetration- whoa!"

 

[chopinbloc]

Look at the other tests on my channel. I use calibrated 10% gelatin. Results should be consistent with every other test that uses properly prepared 10% gelatin. As for water, the comparison to gelatin is not linear with respect to velocity. Also, I'm not surprised that certain .357 loads penetrate as deeply as certain .22lr. . Typical bulk pack 40 gr 22lr has a pretty high sectional density.

 

[chopinbloc]

Its like "26 inches of penetration- whoa!"

LOL. Or, " Yeah, it's only four inches but a perp's heart is only two inches deep."

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I'm curious -- why 14" of 10% gel rather than than the 16" which is used in the FBI protocol? And what do the water jugs tell us about the round's ability to do it's intended job? (Water jugs aren't, like ballistic gel, a substitute for porcine tissue, which is intended to simulate human tissue.)

The water jugs seem to be an "Oh, Wow!" addition to the ballistic gel component that impresses -- I was certainly impressed -- but that addition doesn't seem to tell us much about what the round/bullet do in real-world use.

 

[chopinbloc]

14" because that is the size of tub that fits in my refrigerator. Water jugs because it's nice to be able to catch the bullet if it leaves the block. Please keep in mind that I am not a professional and my tests are not conducted in a laboratory environment. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once, though.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Please keep in mind that I am not a professional and my tests are not conducted in a laboratory environment. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once, though.

You also have a sense of humor, and I salute you for that.

If you continue these demos on You Tube, you will want to be sure to explain clearly in your videos what you've told us above (why 14" and why water jugs) -- so that folks don't make some inferences that may or may not be appropriate. Then it all remains fun and nobody has reason to question the results.

 

[chopinbloc]

I suppose I could. On the other hand, if you think that one shot performed by some fat dude on YouTube is the definitive assessment of a round's potential, maybe a disclaimer isn't what you need.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I don't think the tests are a definitive assessment of a round's potential -- and neither do you, it would appear. But, some folks watching the videos might -- and want to argue or complain or make decisions that aren't appropriate. Explaining things a bit keeps the adventure from appearing to be something it isn't and lets you continue the fun.

 

[chopinbloc]

Done. For the record, my test is consistent with the results that ShootingTheBull410 got in a more comprehensive test.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Done. For the record, my test is consistent with the results that ShootingTheBull410 got in a more comprehensive test.

His results were all over the place! Some pretty good (in bare gelatin), but some terrible with denim -- including a lack of expansion and over penetration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdRktq_-OU0

 

[C0untZer0]

IMO someone would have to shoot a round into gel at least 40 times to get an idea of what a round will actually do - going back my statistics classes.

But from what I've seen of the Sig V-Crown I think it does over-penetrate at most handgun velocities.

It is not a totally horrible round, but if someone can get HST in 124gr or 147gr or Ranger "T" Series 147gr RA9T, those would be better choices. I think the non-bonded Golden Saber out performs the V-Crown too.

Some people get bent out of shape about jacket separation, if the projectile ends up going 14" to 15" and expands to around .60 caliber - what difference does it make if it left its jacket behind?

Actually, there are a lot of other 9mm rounds that outperform the Sig, IMO.

 

[chopinbloc]

The FBI thinks that five shots for each event is adequate. I took one shot. That one shot with denim correlates strongly with ShootingTheBull410's denim shots, considering it is a different bullet weight.

Gold Dot and HST, then Ranger T and Golden Saber are best for handguns.

 

[kokapelli]

Sig better just stick to making guns.

 

[chopinbloc]

LOL, yeah. It's odd that they would put out such a mediocre product in today's market, with the great number of excellent choices available. Of course, it was also odd that Speer would break the excellent Gold Dot line by introducing the garbage G2 bullet.

 

[Wishoot]

LOL, yeah. It's odd that they would put out such a mediocre product in today's market, with the great number of excellent choices available. Of course, it was also odd that Speer would break the excellent Gold Dot line by introducing the garbage G2 bullet.

Riding the Sig name.

It will sell because it says Sig on the box. Those that don't bother to research ammo choices or don't know much about firearms will rely on a fairly recognizable name brand. Right or wrong, having the Sig name on the box gives the product instant credibility.

 

[chopinbloc]

That's certainly true, but I'd consider it unethical and damaging to the brand as a whole.

 

[C0untZer0]

Riding the Sig name.

If Glock made ammo it would sell like crazy and if they made Glock brand lube, that would sell like crazy too.

 

[sequins]

Maybe it's just me but why would you want a 115gr round except for the fact it's cheaper to practice with? I'm not surprised Sig sent the round to market, because while unethical it makes a lot of business sense to sell the round if you've already sunk the cost in developing it. After all, the odds of enough people using the ammo for SD and getting and having bad results for it to really tarnish Sigs name are zilch. I'm more surprised Sig would bother developing a bullet t all if it weren't going to be good, though. Is the novelty/sd ammo market that big?

As for Glock, if Glock made a truck I'd drive it; but my bumper sticker would say "my other car is an HK"