9mm in revolver?
- Thread starter beachwalker
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woad_yurt
Member
Why about moonclips? I hate loading one-by-one. I wish all revolvers were moonclip capable. They're like rifle stripper clips; zip and you're loaded.
I have a .45 N-frame and the moonclips make life so easy. They're faster and work better than speedloaders. They're also way cheaper and require much less space.
I have a .45 N-frame and the moonclips make life so easy. They're faster and work better than speedloaders. They're also way cheaper and require much less space.
Hawk
Member
As others have noted, they have been available sporadically but have invariably failed to sell in the numbers necessary to justify continued production.
Even adding up all the internet postings about 9mm revolvers, it would seem to remain not economically viable. Charter is a wild card but thus far it's been vaporware.
Were I to go down the moon clip road again, and in 9mm, I'd probably gravitate to something like this:
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp
Converting current production to 9mm is easier (and possibly cheaper) than hunting down the discontinued and inflated, though some enjoy the hunt.
If you haven't had a revolver before be advised that moon clips are not universally loved - I'm one of those that believe moon clip functionality is inversely proportional to their ease of use.
In other words, .357 moon clips are easy to "moon" and "demoon" but are about as useless as moon clips get - the rounds are relatively long, fit relatively loosely and inserting the clipped rounds in a cylinder is like trying to push a rope.
Conversely, .45ACP rounds when "full mooned" slide into cylinders like they were drawn by magical magnets - slick and easy. However, "mooning" and "demooning" the things will require around 100 bucks worth of paraphernalia unless you have hands like a silverback gorilla and chain mail gloves. Alternatively, you can build your own appliances or buy RIMZ but however you go about it, you'll devote considerably more time to "mooning" than shooting. That's fine if you find the process therapeutic.
I don't know about 9mm vis a vis where it fits in the scale of "pita to load the clip" vs. "pita to get into the cylinder" but it's probably in there somewhere.
I had a jolly old time with my 325TR but have developed the opinion that autoloader rounds in a revolver requires a bit of dedication on the part of the shooter. It's not exactly pounding a square peg into a round hole but it is pounding a slightly-out-of-round peg into a round hole.
Yes, you can make your own 9mm revolver. I had Pinnacle rechamber one for me, a S&W 360J, so now I have what I wanted and nobody made - a 13oz 9mm snubby (that also shoots 9x21, 9x23, .38 Super, and a couple of others). One thing about these conversions is that they MUST use moonclips. Unlike the 905, 940, and SP101, the case won't headspace in the chamber. Of course, that doesn't bother me, I like them.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
WRONG on the S&W 60, it is only a 38 Spec or 357 unless you have had it converted.
To back up WC145, here's some data from http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com on loads which are pretty comparable from a 3 inch test barrel. This will be the approximate length of a two inch revolver barrel plus cylinder.
.38 Corbon 110 gr. JHP -- 851 fps
.357 Corbon 110 gr. JHP -- 1109 fps
.9mm Corbon 115 gr. JHP -- 1245 fps
.38 Corbon 135 JHP -- 854 fps
.357 Corbon 125 JHP -- 1257 fps
9mm Corbon 125 JHP -- 1170 fps
.38 Hydra Shok 125 gr -- 831 fps
.357 Hydra Shok 130 gr (low recoil) -- 1194 fps
9mm Hydra Shok 124 gr -- 988 fps
9mm Hydra Shok 135 gr (low recoil) -- 976 fps
.38 Gold Dot 135 gr. -- 892
.357 Gold Dot -- NA
9mm Gold Dot 124 gr. 1108
You can see that in comparable commercial loads, the 9mm surpasses the .38 special. It is close to the .357 magnum in one load and actually surpasses the .357 in another.
Now, I know you can find stouter .357 magnum loads or load them yourself to higher velocities. The point is that if you just go into a gun store and buy ammo likely to be in stock (if any is), then the 9mm will compare very well to the two revolver calibers.
I haven't chucked my .38 specials yet but I am thinking about starting to carry my 9mm 547.
.38 Corbon 110 gr. JHP -- 851 fps
.357 Corbon 110 gr. JHP -- 1109 fps
.9mm Corbon 115 gr. JHP -- 1245 fps
.38 Corbon 135 JHP -- 854 fps
.357 Corbon 125 JHP -- 1257 fps
9mm Corbon 125 JHP -- 1170 fps
.38 Hydra Shok 125 gr -- 831 fps
.357 Hydra Shok 130 gr (low recoil) -- 1194 fps
9mm Hydra Shok 124 gr -- 988 fps
9mm Hydra Shok 135 gr (low recoil) -- 976 fps
.38 Gold Dot 135 gr. -- 892
.357 Gold Dot -- NA
9mm Gold Dot 124 gr. 1108
You can see that in comparable commercial loads, the 9mm surpasses the .38 special. It is close to the .357 magnum in one load and actually surpasses the .357 in another.
Now, I know you can find stouter .357 magnum loads or load them yourself to higher velocities. The point is that if you just go into a gun store and buy ammo likely to be in stock (if any is), then the 9mm will compare very well to the two revolver calibers.
I haven't chucked my .38 specials yet but I am thinking about starting to carry my 9mm 547.
AJChenMPH
Member
Charter is still saying "early 2010" release of the CARR.
Suspect it exists and tests well, but they probably ran into patent issues vis-a-vis the S&W 547.
ETA: we also have this thread going as well.
In the thread hotlinked above, I was told .380 ammo can be shot through a 9mm revolver. If so -- that holds some appeal to me since it gives me some options as far as having one fewer caliber to buy ammo in, but still potentially giving my wife a lighter caliber to shoot/carry (if she so desires). I'm also assuming that 9Mak ammo can also be shot, which may give a lower-cost alternative for target practice...
Suspect it exists and tests well, but they probably ran into patent issues vis-a-vis the S&W 547.
ETA: we also have this thread going as well.
In the thread hotlinked above, I was told .380 ammo can be shot through a 9mm revolver. If so -- that holds some appeal to me since it gives me some options as far as having one fewer caliber to buy ammo in, but still potentially giving my wife a lighter caliber to shoot/carry (if she so desires). I'm also assuming that 9Mak ammo can also be shot, which may give a lower-cost alternative for target practice...
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woad_yurt
Member
I disagree. I have a tool just like the one in the picture below. I think it cost me a few dollars, less than five anyway, and it works just fine.
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Hawk
Member
I did admit to alternatives but I suspect many things in life are trade-offs. Using the Cal Comp gizmos, I was at least (when the moon was the seventh house) going at two rounds per squeeze, as it were.
Even at that, I found it akin to manually seating primers - best performed in front of a TV running a show you don't like. And, since the .45ACP clips load into the cylinder so nicely it becomes doubly apparent that you can burn through the things lots faster than prepare them.
And, quite unlike magazines or "normal" revolvers, "mooning" up clips at the range is something I wouldn't even consider.
None of this is a deal killer but it is something I would have appreciated somebody mentioning before I embarked on my journey of discovery. Since the OP states he has no experience with the things I will cheerfully advise him that some few folks see a big old hairy wart on the princess of moonclips.
Amazingly enough, I actually had an empty case fall so in love with its clip that I broke the FRP demooner - hence I wound up buying both the "super" and its broken cheaper cousin.
Nice ingenuity you've exhibited with that simple and straightforward gadget - I likely would have bent it back to its original shape in my struggles.
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SteelyNirvana
Member
I think it would be a great idea if Ruger was to make the LCR in 9mm.
boy, i sure love my moonclips. i don't mind moonclipping at the range. I always try to bring a bag full of loaded moonclips, but it's ok if I moonclip a box or two at the range. Not much different than loading a magazine. And it generally gets people looking and asking questions - and I'm quite certain I've gotten people to go out and buy a 625 after seeing and shooting mine.
I've found the 9mm moonclips are easy to load and unload. They snap right in and I just stithe eraser end of a pencil into the empties, hold the pencil and the case and give a little twist and they come right out.
The .40 S&W moonclips for my 646 snap in okay but are tougher to unload. It came with a tool like woad yurt's and it pops them right out.
The .40 S&W moonclips for my 646 snap in okay but are tougher to unload. It came with a tool like woad yurt's and it pops them right out.
Grapevine
Member
I bought a Taurus 905 this summer to replace a Beretta 21a that was taken in a breakin of my house. The fellow that I bought it from had replaced the original grip with an extended one which gave a place for your pinkie. He said he had shot it several times and that it jumped in his hand before he got the new grip. The "Stellar"(Taurus' name for moon clip) clips that came with the gun were still in their package, stuck together. I changed the grip back to original (less profile for IWB carry) and loaded up the 5 clips and went to the range. I really like the way this little gun handles and carries. I did not have any problem with the gun jumping or twisting in my hands and I had a 4in group @ ten yards repeatedly. I didn't have any problem un or reloading the "Stellar" clips. I also tried firing a few rounds without the clip and jad a little trouble getting the spent cases out of the cylinder.:banghead: It ain't a J Frame, but I'm not trying to get rid of it either. I found a pill bottle that the loaded clips fit into almost perfectly so they are not loose in the pocket. I can pop the lid off the bottle and a clip will fall into the open cylinder real nice.
You heard this from the "Grapevine"
I didn't have any problem un or reloading the "Stellar" clips. I also tried firing a few rounds without the clip and jad a little trouble getting the spent cases out of the cylinder.:banghead: It ain't a J Frame, but I'm not trying to get rid of it either. I found a pill bottle that the loaded clips fit into almost perfectly so they are not loose in the pocket. I can pop the lid off the bottle and a clip will fall into the open cylinder real nice.You heard this from the "Grapevine"
Loyalist Dave
Member
I bought a 940 as it used the same ammo as my carry Glock at the time I bought it. It does produce some very nice ballistics.
LD
John Wayne
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The 9mm is a very efficient cartridge, particularly when compared to the .38 spl. in a short barrel. Numerous companies including Ruger, S&W, and Taurus offered or currently offer 9mm revolvers in a small DA revolver platform.
The drawbacks of using a rimless cartridge in a revolver are that you have to either use moonclips or have a special extractor. If you drop loose cartridges in a revolver designed for moonclips, you will have to poke them out one at a time, and may also run into ignition problems.
I am a big fan of the 9mm cartridge in certain applications. I would love to have one in a snub revolver, but I don't want to pay an outrageous price for one, or have to fool with moon clips.
Fans of .45 ACP have the option of shooting .45 AutoRim in their revolvers, but to my knowledge no one has ever produced a 9mm AutoRim. If they did I'd buy the gun and lots of brass in a heartbeat.
Don't know if anyone has considered it or not, but I think a .357 Sig revolver would be really cool. If the bottleneck case headspaced on the shoulder and had a special extractor, it seems like it'd be pretty neat. You could load down to 9mm levels, get great performance, and have a shorter cylinder.
The drawbacks of using a rimless cartridge in a revolver are that you have to either use moonclips or have a special extractor. If you drop loose cartridges in a revolver designed for moonclips, you will have to poke them out one at a time, and may also run into ignition problems.
I am a big fan of the 9mm cartridge in certain applications. I would love to have one in a snub revolver, but I don't want to pay an outrageous price for one, or have to fool with moon clips.
Fans of .45 ACP have the option of shooting .45 AutoRim in their revolvers, but to my knowledge no one has ever produced a 9mm AutoRim. If they did I'd buy the gun and lots of brass in a heartbeat.
Don't know if anyone has considered it or not, but I think a .357 Sig revolver would be really cool. If the bottleneck case headspaced on the shoulder and had a special extractor, it seems like it'd be pretty neat. You could load down to 9mm levels, get great performance, and have a shorter cylinder.
jfh
Member.
an addendum for KyJim's chart of velocities:
Jim H.
1. The Speer 357 Magnum 135-gr. 'Short Barrel' round does 970-1000 fps from a nominal 2" barrel' j-frame. I've chrono'ed it several times from an M&P340 and from a 640.
2. With that in mind, it stacks up perfectly against the Federal Hydra-Shock 9mm 135-gr. 'low recoil' round.
2. With that in mind, it stacks up perfectly against the Federal Hydra-Shock 9mm 135-gr. 'low recoil' round.
Jim H.
Try to shoot a 38 super auto in a 357. You you will like as much.
However,
Always be carefull when using lower cartriges for after firing lots of then, is almost impossible to load the original ones becouse of the burned powder on the chamber.
9mm is "better" than .38! Specially becouse of the conic shape of it. However, i dont like the extraction.
When shooting .38, I recomend a long barreled gun, strong primer, slow burning powder (dependes on the barrel) and a very heavy projectiles. 158bg or more, pure lead with gas check.
Winchesters clones of lever action are great for that.
Revolvers... Taurus has made some with 8-3/8" barrel but with 8 .38 rounds on the cilinder. The walls of that cilinders are just too thin. Any attempt to overload the gun is scary to me.
However, i can shoot down a plates at 200 mts (aiming very high) with one of mine.
However,
Always be carefull when using lower cartriges for after firing lots of then, is almost impossible to load the original ones becouse of the burned powder on the chamber.
9mm is "better" than .38! Specially becouse of the conic shape of it. However, i dont like the extraction.
When shooting .38, I recomend a long barreled gun, strong primer, slow burning powder (dependes on the barrel) and a very heavy projectiles. 158bg or more, pure lead with gas check.
Winchesters clones of lever action are great for that.
Revolvers... Taurus has made some with 8-3/8" barrel but with 8 .38 rounds on the cilinder. The walls of that cilinders are just too thin. Any attempt to overload the gun is scary to me.
However, i can shoot down a plates at 200 mts (aiming very high) with one of mine.
Really good information on 9MM revolvers. I happen to own a new in box S&W model 547 3HB made in 1985. I have not shot it and don't know if I want to. Collectors value is up there in the $1000 range. There were only 6486 round butt made in the 3 inch barrel and 3784 square butt made with a 4 inch barrel. Mine is a 3 inch barrel.
Here is a little story about the 547.
From what I've been told (from reliable sources) the reason for this revolver's existence comes from the Middle East.
In the late 1970's, the Israelis wanted to arm the Palestinian Police force with a 9mm handgun, but didn't trust them with an autoloading pistol. Instead, they wanted a simple-to-use a revolver chambered in 9mm (and by "simple-to-use", they meant "no-moon-clips"). They contracted with Smith & Wesson to make it for them.
There are two problems that have to be solved before you can make a moonclip-less 9x19 revolver:
How do you extract the cases?
How do you keep a tapered cartridge from backing up when fired and locking up the cylinder?
Question #1 - How do you extract the cases? - was answered by Roger J. Curran of Stratford, CT in the form of patent number 4127955 - Extractor assembly for rimless cartridges. Instead of the usual "star" type extractor, the Model 547 features a horn-shaped extractor (see picture 5 above) with small beryllium-copper spring tabs that grab the rim of each case. This assembly is for extraction only; the cartridges headspace on the mouth. The device works really well - I've never had a stuck case.
The second problem - tapered cases backing out and locking up the cylinder - was a familiar one to S&W. This same issue killed the Model 53 (.22 Jet) revolver. S&W overcame this in the 547 by adding a pin (above the firing pin) that prevents the fired case from backing up (see picture 6). This solution seems to be effective, as I've never had the cylinder lock up in all the rounds I've fired. Speaking of firing pins, the one in the 547 is a floating pin. While this is common to most new S&W revolvers, it was unique to the 547 back in the day.
Soon after Smith & Wesson delivered the first shipment of these revolvers, the Israeli government cancelled the rest of the order and instead bought an IMI revolver that was a Model 547 knockoff. S&W released the remaining guns to the civilian market.
http://www.vintagepistols.com/range_report_S&W_547.html
Here is a little story about the 547.
From what I've been told (from reliable sources) the reason for this revolver's existence comes from the Middle East.
In the late 1970's, the Israelis wanted to arm the Palestinian Police force with a 9mm handgun, but didn't trust them with an autoloading pistol. Instead, they wanted a simple-to-use a revolver chambered in 9mm (and by "simple-to-use", they meant "no-moon-clips"). They contracted with Smith & Wesson to make it for them.
There are two problems that have to be solved before you can make a moonclip-less 9x19 revolver:
How do you extract the cases?
How do you keep a tapered cartridge from backing up when fired and locking up the cylinder?
Question #1 - How do you extract the cases? - was answered by Roger J. Curran of Stratford, CT in the form of patent number 4127955 - Extractor assembly for rimless cartridges. Instead of the usual "star" type extractor, the Model 547 features a horn-shaped extractor (see picture 5 above) with small beryllium-copper spring tabs that grab the rim of each case. This assembly is for extraction only; the cartridges headspace on the mouth. The device works really well - I've never had a stuck case.
The second problem - tapered cases backing out and locking up the cylinder - was a familiar one to S&W. This same issue killed the Model 53 (.22 Jet) revolver. S&W overcame this in the 547 by adding a pin (above the firing pin) that prevents the fired case from backing up (see picture 6). This solution seems to be effective, as I've never had the cylinder lock up in all the rounds I've fired. Speaking of firing pins, the one in the 547 is a floating pin. While this is common to most new S&W revolvers, it was unique to the 547 back in the day.
Soon after Smith & Wesson delivered the first shipment of these revolvers, the Israeli government cancelled the rest of the order and instead bought an IMI revolver that was a Model 547 knockoff. S&W released the remaining guns to the civilian market.
http://www.vintagepistols.com/range_report_S&W_547.html
shooterjon
Member
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Is recoil a issue
One thing that hasn't come up is recoil. When i shot 357 out of my old 2.5" barrel it was like a flame thrower with the kick of a small mule. Since the ballistics are similar in the 9 and 357, do these 9mm revolvers have the same issue. ?
One thing that hasn't come up is recoil. When i shot 357 out of my old 2.5" barrel it was like a flame thrower with the kick of a small mule. Since the ballistics are similar in the 9 and 357, do these 9mm revolvers have the same issue. ?
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