9mm Rifle Loads

[shooter503]

OK you tinkerers. I used to reload a lot for large rifle cartridges but it has been a long time and I have just found a new project.

I just bought a Marlin Camp 9 carbine. All the advice is to stay with standard pistol loads (as opposed to +P loads) but I do not think that considers hand-loading. Most reports suggest you gain about 200fps by firing standard pistol loads in the longer barrel.

I figure that by taking advantage of the longer barrel with slower burning powders it should be possible to increase velocity and still keep the cartridge at pistol pressure levels. Has anyone got any experience in this area?

The rifle will be fitted with a 21 pound recoil spring and a new plastic buffer. The minimum load is clearly that which will cycle the action. The maximum load is probably limited more by recoil severity than action burst strength.

I am thinking of a starting load of 9 grains of 2400 with a 115 grain bullet, see how clean it burns and what the chrono. says. Might even get to trying something slower like Reloader 7.

No point in reinventing the wheel so if anyone has been down this path I would appreciate input.

 

[Walkalong]

Try 3N37 or Blue Dot which is cheaper.

 

[jungleroy]

Bluedot

I find with a good crimp, from the lee factory crimp die that bluedot burns well and gives great velocity. I use the max load with 115, 122, and 124 grain Hard cast leads in my Marlin camp9 and just recently acquired another Hipoint 9carbine. There is not much leading. Work up to the max load, I don't want anyone to get hurt, but I have Alliant factory load book that says my max load is still under the standard maximum preasures for the 9mm cartridge..

 

[Liberty4Ever]

I figure that by taking advantage of the longer barrel with slower burning powders it should be possible to increase velocity and still keep the cartridge at pistol pressure levels. Has anyone got any experience in this area?

I had EXACTLY the same idea. I was certain other reloaders did too, but my Googling was not very helpful.

I have a Kel-Tec SUB-2000 folding 9mm carbine with a 16" barrel. It's a great little gun and a ton of fun for plinking. I decided to develop what I'm calling 9mmSUB loads, to distinguish them from typical 9mm pistol loads using faster burning powder. The SUB-2000 will shoot 1350 fps with 115 gr WWB and 9mm+P 115 gr loads with 357 magnum performance at 1530 fps.

So far, I've been working up test loads using various powders. I started with Blue Dot and Win296. Both worked well, had lower felt recoil (flatter pressure curve with less of a pressure spike), but were not really any faster than WWB or comparable loads.

I tried to pick slower powders that had good load densities. I searched the magnum pistol data for high velocity loads that used a smaller volume of powder. But the Blue Dot and Win296 both ended up being limited by case capacity. I'm now experimenting with Power Pistol, HS-7 (now discontinued) and Longshot.

The second set of test loads started to see some success. 6.2 gr of Longshot propelled a 115 gr FMJ bullet at 1489 fps with no signs of overpressure and recoil comparable to WWB or maybe a little less, and there is room in the case for 6.4 or maybe 6.6 gr of Longshot. 8.4 gr of HS-7 was almost as fast, but I think that was a full case and might have been slightly compressed.

I'm really just getting started with the 9mmSUB loads. There are a couple of more series of loading and shooting experiments to do with 115 gr bullets. The copper plated bullets are usually a bit faster. Rainier doesn't recommend them above 1500 fps, but it'd be fun to make some 1500 fps low recoil rounds with low cost plated bullets. I also have some 82 gr JHP bullets and I'll be going for an absolute speed record with them. Then I'll start all over again in a 40 S&W SUB-2000.

I have an opposite reloading project after the pistol carbine loads. I have a Kel-Tec PLR-16, .223 pistol with a 9" barrel. The muzzle flash is 12" in diameter and 24" long. Even worse, the report is so loud that I wear foam earplugs under ear muffs, and even then the high pressure shock wave blasting through my brain can be unpleasant at times. Otherwise, it's a very fun pistol. I'd like to use a slightly faster powder and less of it to get a similar muzzle velocity with less flash and bang, by adjusting the powder burn rate to the shorter barrel. The gas operated PLR-16 was optimized for 5.56mm NATO ammo, so I doubt it'll cycle properly if I select a much faster burning powder, but the powder that burns outside the barrel certainly isn't helping the PLR-16 to cycle. I'm just starting with .223 reloading, so I want more experience before I head off the beaten path, and I'd proceed with caution because I'm very mindful of the dangers if any rifle caliber weapon has a kaboom. But it'd be nice to have a 223PLR load that has less flash & bang, cycles reliably, and costs less because a smaller amount of slightly faster rifle powder is used.

 

[shooter503]

Thanks Guys,
I picked up some Alliant 2400 today. I will be using a starting load of 8 grains behind a Speer 115 grain FMJ.

First test will be to get some baseline chronograph data using factory loads. I will then start working up slowly with the 2400. The only new area for me is that I will be loading to the firearm recoil limit rather than cartridge maximum load and backing off a little. Before, with bolt rifles, the limit was basically primer flattening indications etc. Now it will be a less precise matter of perceived recoil. 8 grains of 2400 still leaves some airspace in the case. Purely in terms of case volume I think 9 grains would be possible. I have to do some research to check the effect of compressed loads in pistols. In bolt guns compressed loads were quite usual. I had one cartridge were we compressed horrific amounts of 3031 into a case - worked fine.

When I have finished the 2400 test I will perform a parallel test with BlueDot.

It will take me a while but I will post the results.

Lib, you are right. No manuals or websites seem to have 9mm rifle data. The Longshot loads sound interesting. Did some work on 223 loads myself using a XP100 pistol. Quite impressive. I punched a neat hole through a cast iron brake disc and could not find any remains of bullet or disc metal behind the target. It seemed to just vaporize. Be careful with Accurate Arms 223 if they still sell it. Very rapid pressure rise as load is increased near max.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

My 9mmSUB experiments continue.

When it comes time for the 223PLR experiments, I may try some Ramshot X-Terminator (slightly faster than Win748), or Hodgdon H4198, all the way down to N120. I don't think I'll be going off the load charts like I did when picking slower powders for the 9mmSUB carbine loads. I'll probably experiment with the faster burning powders in the 223 load data. Slower powder seems less risky. Faster powder seems more likely to produce rapid pressure spikes that could exceed SAAMI maximm chamber pressures.

 

[JDGray]

HS6 a good 9mm powder. Start loads of 6.5gr gave me 1200fps, with 115gr fmj out of a 4.5" barrel. Have fun, and be safe

 

[Liberty4Ever]

I went to the range on Saturday and shot the 9mmSUB loads. These are all larger amounts of slow powders in 9mm+P brass. My goal was to develop a slightly hot load that doesn't exceed +P SAAMI chamber pressure ratings, and see how fast I can get a 9mm bullet to fly out of the 16" barrel of a Kel-Tec SUB-2000.

I present the loads below, but THESE ARE NOT LOADS YOU SHOULD TRY. I tested them in a very strong carbine, and I assumed the risk for my own actions. I do not assume any responsibility for your actions. In a shorter barreled pistol, I assume the slow powder I used would result in very low muzzle velocities and a lot of burning powder shot out the muzzle.



I'm claiming a speed record (that Clark will probably dispute with some insane-o load ) of 1932 fps out of a SUB-2000 9mm carbine. That's 746 ft lbs of kinetic energy! That's the same energy as the powerful 165 grain 10mm Double Tap defensive loads I shoot in the Glock, and it's also the same energy as the PLR-16 .223 pistol shooting 55 gr FMJ at 2472 fps. Not too shabby for a little three pound folding 9mm SUB-2000!

This was a 90 grain Hornady JHP XTP with 8.6 grains of Longshot powder in a WCC+P brass case. This is not a load recommendation. It is not a standard load, or even close to a standard load. It felt like a DPX +P load, and sounded about like +P too. There were no signs of overpressure, and the SUB-2000 cycled properly for all five of these, as well as the previous five with 8.1 grains of powder, and the five before that with 7.4 grains of powder. I was using my elastomer recoil buffer cylinder in the SUB-2000, and that would keep the bolt from slamming back on a hard stop, so it wasn't quite a factory stock SUB-2000.

Hodgdon Longshot - 7.4 gr
1684 fps ES=1738-1610=128 SD=55 fps
KE = 567 ft lbs

Hodgdon Longshot - 8.1 gr
1779 fps ES=1816-1720=96 SD=35 fps
KE = 632 ft lbs

Hodgdon Longshot - 8.6 gr
1883 fps ES=1932-1844=88 SD=34 fps
KE = 708 ft lbs

I also did some experiments with 115 gr FMJ bullets, and this was the fastest.

7.4 gr Longshot 115 gr FMJ
1597 fps ES=1652-1468=184 fps SD=49 fps
KE = 651 ft lbs

1652 fps isn't too shabby either, for a 115 gr bullet. That's 697 ft lbs of kinetic energy. I think this may have been the highest pressure load of the day, and it's my limit, or maybe a little past my limit.

The Longshot was pretty well filling the small 9mm+P cases and might have been a very slightly compressed charge at 8.6 gr. The Longshot seemed slow enough to take better advantage of the longer carbine barrel, and it was dense enough to allow enough powder without overfilling the case. I had previosly tried Blue Dot and Win-296, and they were slightly faster than normal loads with lower felt recoil, because the slower powders had a lower peak pressure and a more sustained pressure curve that made a longer shove, rather than a faster slap. HS-7 and Power Pistol were a bit faster but still were case volume limited.

 

[Clark]

Nice chrono.
I just got one like that.
Have not been to the range yet.
It times my hand at 20 fps and my pellet gun at 600 fps.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

I like the chrono quite a bit. It's the only one I've owned, so I can't fairly compare it to the others. It has good customer reviews at www.MidwayUSA.com.

I would advise getting a tripod for it. Walmart has a nice Chinese made tripod for $30. The first time I used the chrono, I put it on the shooting bench at the range and stepped back a few feet from the line (a questionable practice, but my friend and I were the only ones there). I was shooting the SUB-2000. To accomodate the folding carbine, its sights are about 2.5" above the bore. I thought I was allowing plenty of clearance, but the first shot skimmed off the top of the chrono.

The chrono flew a few feet in front of the bench and landed on the ground. The case was sprung open and some of the internal subassemblies were popped loose from where they were supposed to be, and there was an ugly groove in the top between the sensors. Doh!

I used a screwdriver to diassemble the chrono, put everything back where it seemed to go, and reassembled it. Takes a licking, and keeps on ticking.

The tripod makes it much less likely to do something stupid like this, and it's much more convenient. It's also handy to support a camera to make videos of blowing up jugs of water and other bubba "hey, y'all watch this here" activities.

And no, it did not measure the velocity of the round I used to shoot the chrono.

 

[Walkalong]

Now THAT'S a backstop!

It is not a standard load, or even close to a standard load.

Better you than me. If I want more than a cartridge can give, I get a bigger gun.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

Better you than me. If I want more than a cartridge can give, I get a bigger gun.

I agree with that sentiment. My intention was not to flll a case with powder and see how fast the bullet travels just before the gun explodes. My goal was to create a load that demonstrated "the most a cartridge can give", not "more than a cartridge can give". The carbine is rated for +P loads, and +P was my intention. I may have very slightly exceeded +P on the 115 gr load, (still no signs of over pressure), and I won't load those again because I don't have a method to directly measure chamber pressure.

Modern firearms are designed with very large safety margins, and that's just the way I like it. I will not knowingly cut into the safety margin to increase performance, but if I can use a larger charge of slower powder to increase performance without exceeding SAAMI pressures, well, that's what reloading is all about to me. YMMV.

There is certainly nothing wrong with staying with the published loads, and it's safer than developing custom loads, especially maximum performance loads.

I do not recommend any of these loads for anybody. I have only briefly tested them in one carbine, and your results will be different, maybe dangerously different. My pressure estimates were guesses based on the sound and feel of the carbine and observing spent cases. That's not a very accurate method of determining chamber pressure, and without measuring chamber pressure, there is no way to verify the load is safe for any weapon that meets SAAMI specs. In short, DO NOT DUPLICATE THESE LOADS. Work up your own loads if you like. You're on your own.

 

[Walkalong]

I guess my remark could be considered a bit S******s. I apologize. I just meant, Be carefull.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

No offense taken. I think we're both saying the same thing. Let's keep reloading safe and fun. It's the sort of message that bears repeating.

 

[Walkalong]

Oh yea. Forgot

I hotrod my custom benchrest rifle in 6PPC all the time. We all do. A calculated risk with superior equipment made from the best steels for the use.

I guess I'm guilty too.

 

[Clark]

Walkalong
Digression:
My seat of the pants look at my 6mmBR brass tells me that [with it's small primer pocket] it can take much more pressure than 243 brass.

I have the brass, dies, and lots of 6mmPPC take off barrels, I just need to decide on a neck size for the reamer.

 

[Walkalong]

Most of us use a .262 neck, some use a .261. Other sizes may be used but .262 is by far the most common. We are talking 6PPC here. I have no experience with 6BR.
Yes, the Lapua .220 Russian brass we use to make 6PPC brass with is very tough. It uses a small primer and a small flash hole: .063 I think, but that is from memory and I could be wrong. Almost everyone uses it because it holds up so much better than other brass. I do not know about the 6BR brass, but could find out from those who do shoot it in competition. 6PPC still dominates.