9mm Self Defence Ammo

[basicblur]

Is there somewhere to get this information off the web? I know absolutely nothing about what most of you guys said and would like to learn.

While it’s not on the ‘Net?, you might consider purchasing “Stopping Power” by Marshall & Sanow?
http://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Powe...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202412112&sr=8-1

If you do a bit of searching on the ‘Net, you’ll find a lot of folks love to vilify these guys and their book, but I thought it was a great/informative read.

Hey, you said you wanted to learn?

 

[Rampant_Colt]

While it’s not on the ‘Net?, you might consider purchasing “Stopping Power” by Marshall & Sanow?
http://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Power...2412112&sr=8-1

If you do a bit of searching on the ‘Net, you’ll find a lot of folks love to vilify these guys and their book, but I thought it was a great/informative read.

Hey, you said you wanted to learn?

Their books have been proven to be hoaxes and full of misinformation

If you're serious about learning wound ballistics then buy a copy of Duncan Macpherson's Bullet Penetration

 

[basicblur]

Their books have been proven to be hoaxes and full of misinformation

Proven by whom? (Don't bother; it's a rhetorical question)…

As I stated, lots of folks on the ‘Net like to vilify Marshall & Sanow (but I thought ARK9mm might have to look farther than the next post!), and tightwad that I am, before I shelled out my hard earned cash on a book of this type/price, I did a lot of research on the ‘Net. Spent a helluva lot of time reading posts/sites from folks who don’t agree with “Stopping Power”, but after losing track of the number of long-winded reasons why their findings were (insert your favorite derogatory adjective here), my eyes glazed over and I still didn’t see it.

Guess this is kinda like the “best caliber” argument-perhaps one should research multiple sources before deciding which research/theories to go with.
I kinda liked the real-world study/results from Marshall & Sanow instead of simply relying on lab results.

Now that doesn’t mean the boys didn’t make some mistakes or screw a thing or two up (although I'm not saying they did), but as stated, after spending way too much time reading the “problems” with their book, I just didn’t see it…

 

[golden]

Where Is The Proof In The Penetration Crowd

I agree with BASICBLUR. Where is all the evidence to support the penetration crowd. I keep hearing about MARTIN FACKLER, but I have never seen stats from him to prove his arguments.
It is also interesting that his PENETRATION IS KING argument goes againts the experience of FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY and MUNICIPAL law enforcement agencies who have ALL FOUND THAT LIMITED PENETRATION AMMO IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE.

Name one Law Enforcement agency that has used the 125 grain .357 magnum or 155 grain .40 caliber round that has complained about the effectiveness of their ammo.
Both rounds penetrate 10 to 15 inches max. They are both renowned for incapacitration.

As this started out as a 9m.m. question, my suggestion is to use ANY 115 or 124 grain +P Jacketed Hollowpoint Ammo. They have shown as a group to be quit effective. I use either FEDERAL HST or HYDROSHOK in +P loadings.
If you do not want to use +P, then a standard velocity hollowpoint like the HYDRO SHOK, GOLDEN SABRE or GOLD DOT would be my choice.
If your gun is ammo sensitive, I would test REMINGTON JHP. It is the least dynamic in expanding, but will feed in almost any gun.
I advise against using any 147 grain ammo.

Just my opinion.

Jim

 

[basicblur]

Anbody besides me using Federal EFMJ?

I have decided against getting +p. I had decided to get Federal Classic 115 grain JHP...

Might want to possibly consider Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket line...or am I the only person in here that's bought Federal EFMJ?
Back when I stocked up, prices for the EFMJ line were for a box of 50 and I thought were competitively priced. I see now Federal has apparently entered the “boutique” market and is changing a few things around, but selling lots of their ammo in 20/25 round boxes, marketing it as “self-defense”.

At the time I purchased, I liked what I read about Federal’s EFMJ line, and also the fact that with a FMJ:
1. Will hopefully feed more reliably then HPs?
2. Iff’n you do have to shoot in self-defense, nobody can yak ‘bout you using HPs in court?

Yeah…I’ve read tons o’ stuff ‘bout HPs coming up in court cases. Legitimate worry or not, why take a chance, ‘specially since the EFMJ line seems to be a good performer?

 

[Gun Slinger]

9mm, 147 Gr, JHP/XTP Bullet

+1

Excellent round. Expands to .55"-.57" and penetrates to 14"+ in calibrated ballistic gelatin. What more could you ask for?

I prefer to carry the Hornady TAP "CQ" 9mm 147 XTP/JHP in my Glock 17 over the TAP/FPD black nickel plated cases as I just cannot justify spending 2-3 extra bucks per box just for the black tacti-"cool" finish on the cartridge cases.

Of course, YMMV, too.

If you're serious about learning wound ballistics then buy a copy of Duncan Macpherson's Bullet Penetration

+1. Great read.

GS

 

[spiroxlii]

golden, In the gelatin tests I've seen, modern 147gr 9mm JHP rounds do not have massive penetration at the expense of expansion.

I admit that older 147gr subsonic JHPs had problems expanding because they had velocities less than 1000fps from handgun barrels, but new bullets, even cheap ones like WWB JHPs, expand as reliably as their lighter counterparts, despite being slower.

 

[golden]

So Why Use Them?

SPIROXLII,

The 147 grain loads have been pushed for their deeper penetration. If they penetrate no deeper than a 124 grain +P, then why use them?

The 147 grain was originally developed for a very specific use. Silenced or Supressed firearms needed a sub-sonic round. A hollowpoint was added to INCREASE ACCURACY, not for expansion. The round got a lot of hype for one shot stops.
However, the shots were more akin to assinations than gunfights. Things like sentry removal.

Like I said, I see no use for them outside of the sub-sonic application. I have found that in a CZ-75, they shot to a completely different point of aim from the 124 grain hollow points.

Jim

 

[RobertFBurnett]

I have found that in a CZ-75, they shot to a completely different point of aim from the 124 grain hollow points.

+1

I am pretty new to the 9mm scene, but after putting about 100 rounds of 147 grain FMJ and 250 rounds 124 Grain FMJs in a 226 downrange (HD are usually JHPs but I am still in the break in period that is why FMJs) there is something odd personally about placement of the 147 Not bad, just different. For HD, trials haven't finished yet but Remington Gold Sabers and Speer Gold Dot 124 +p are up next for personal testing.

Just my opinion, no ballistics to back it up.

RFB

 

[Blarelli]

I use the heavy golden saber +p's.

 

[camacho]

Folks,

A lot of you are recommending 147 gr. The manual for this gun recommends up to 124 gr. , and not P+. I would advise the original poster to bear in mind those limitations when taking those recommendations into consideration.

 

[spiroxlii]

Golden, I don't deny that 147gr bullets penetrate farther than 124gr or 115gr bullets. What I was saying is that the currently available defensive 147gr JHPs (like Golden Sabers) don't show massive overpenetration with no expansion or deformation.

As you say, the original hollowpoint 147s didn't have a cavity for expansion, but for accuracy. I didn't know that, but it would explain why early 147gr hollowpoints developed a reputation for going straight through a target without deforming or expanding.

Tests using 147gr JHPs that are meant for defense and designed to expand even at subsonic velocities show consistent expansion in gel. If the bullets do end up leaving through an exit wound after that, they are severely deformed and significantly slowed.

I don't know if the gel in the tests I saw was properly made or calibrated, but 147gr Remington Golden Sabers showed 14 inches of average penetration, and WWBs showed slightly less.

The "fast and light" vs "slow and heavy" argument will go on, probably forever. If you prefer to use 115 or 124gr defensive rounds and you shoot well with them in your carry pistol, then by all means, you should keep carrying what you and your gun like. Any high-quality defensive 9mm JHP should effectively ruin an attacker's day.

I personally use "slow and heavy" defensive ammo, but to the .45ACP fans, even my 147gr 9mm JHPs are considered "mosquito stings," because they're not slow and heavy ENOUGH!

 

[lt7d101]

As stated above you need to match the round to particular pistol. Ie: Browning Hi Powers were made to shoot military 124grn ammo. So in my HPs I carry 124 grn or as close to it as I can get, such as Ranger SXT 127 grn, which is the infamous Black Talon with a copper plating. For practice I use 124 grn ball ammo which I've found to be the most accurate. My HPs especially like the surplus military 124grn which they were designed for. Ditto for my CZs.

In my smaller 9s, Kahr P9C (my favorite throw it in the pocket beater), Kahr MK9, S&W 908, Sig SP 2009 I carry hotter 115 grn HPs. With a shorter barrel my opinion is you need the added speed to generate stopping power. I choose from the above mentioned brands.

I've not shot any of the Winne White Box HPs. I hope they are better than their 115grn practice ammo. I've had bullets that left the barrel so slow I could see it. not so sure I'd trust my life to that stuff.

I have some 147grn Black Talon loaded by Fiocchi that I carry in my WW2 era Star B. With the 5" barrel I'm confident it will have enough speed/power to do the job. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end to find out.

If you want something that will put them down every time get the 45acp pistol of your choice and practice, practice , practice from 3-7 yrds until you can hit center mass with your eyes closed.

 

[kmrcstintn]

and forget about the Fiocchi ammunition - stick to proven duty loads like Gold Dot, Ranger , Golden Sabre..etc.

the new American produced Fiocchi loads are using Hornady XTP jhp's for their jhp offerings...Hornady's XTP bullet designs are proven!

based upon the technical information given about his pistol...124 gr standard pressure offerings from Federal (Hydrashok), Remington (Golden Sabre), CCI (Gold Dot), Hornady (XTP), and Black Hills would prove to be a good corral to draw from...I'm keeping my choices to non-LEO since these can be bought OTC from many places

 

[Gun Slinger]

kmrcstintn,

the new American produced Fiocchi loads are using Hornady XTP jhp's for their jhp offerings...Hornady's XTP bullet designs are proven!

Yep, they should be just fine. Use them and sleep well.

GS

 

[thejunk4bob]

Thank you all for your replies and helpful suggestions. I have decided to give the Federal HST standard pressure 124 grain a try. They cost 19.95 plus about 10 dollars for shipping(where I am) for a box of 50 at ammunitiontogo.com

 

[chupacabrah]

I've got some Speer gold dots (147 gr), about 5 left in my HD magazine. I used the rest of the box of 20 for testing for consistency ($20 per box of 20). I loaded the rest of the magazine with WWB personal defense 147gr JHP ($16/box of 50).

 

[NWdude83]

Moph, is your Kel-Tec PF9 rated to handle +P+ ?

 

[buzz_knox]

The 147 grain was originally developed for a very specific use. Silenced or Supressed firearms needed a sub-sonic round. A hollowpoint was added to INCREASE ACCURACY, not for expansion.

The modern 147 grain round (as typified by the Ranger T series) is designed to extreme expansion and good expansion through any medium.
They have come a long way from the original design specs, and are providing quite good service on the street.

 

[tblt]

I yse remington 115 gr. JHP from walmart shoots and feeds good.I may shoot into some phone books soon to see if they expand well.

 

[golden]

WHY 147 grain?

All the 147 grain loads are no more effective than the standard 115 and 124 grain bullets and less effective than the +P ammo. So why use them.
In addition, the shoot to a different point of aim on my CZ.

Jim

 

[alaskanativeson]

The following is advice I got directly from gun writer Mas Ayoob:

Go to your local police dept. and ask what they issue. If, God forbid, you ever need to use your pistol to defend yourself you know a couple of things: You have chosen the same round the police use to protect themselves. Also, if you end up in a lawsuit afterwards from the deceased's family (you always shoot to kill in my book) when their scum-sucking lawyer tries to ask you why you chose to use such a vicious evil "dum-dum" round or "cop killer" bullet you can say that you use the same thing the police do to protect the rest of us.

Unfortunately it's something we have to consider in today's litigious world.

 

[BigMike66]

Ammo Test - Choice Defensive Loads

The Complete Book Of Handguns 2008

has an article by M Ayoob covering all calibers and the best ammo type based upon results of shooting analysis from state police and large city PDs.

For a newbie, I found it to be a worthwhile article. So much, that I'm changing what ammo I use for HD/SD.

9mm - 115gr JHP

faster bullets : "there is much more corollary tissue damage around the wound channels with with the faster 9mms w/medical examiners documenting "macerated" flesh..."

 

[tblt]

I agree with bigmike faster is better.
you will also get better expansion with a faster bullet.
I shoot federal hyda shock 110 gr 1000 fps.just to get that extra speed.
I shoot 115 gr in my 9 1155 fps

 

[cowssurf]

Just yesterday I was plinking in the desert with my new Stoeger Cougar. Somebody else had been shooting at the innards of an old speaker. It was heavy with ceramics, wire, and a heavy magnet. I stuck it on an old tire and shot at it with 115 gr bullets. It was hit and knocked unemotionally off the tire. I then shot it with a 149 gr bullet and the hole thing shattered in spectacular fashion with the unit flying satisfactorily through the air. I know that wasn't a very scientific experiment, but I keep my piece loaded with 149 gr JHP. And with the Cougar's rotating barrel (and perhaps due to my alma mater being a .357), I didn't notice the difference in recoil.