9mm vs .38

[isp2605]

Illinois SP was the first LE Agency to use them very soon after they were released.

The ISP first issued the 39 in 1968.
The 39 was actually first built in 1953 for the military tests to replace the 1911. They made it out to the public in 1954.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"The Model 39 was ahead of its time. It sold slowly--only 426 units in 1957. When it was adopted as official sidearm of the Illinois State Police in 1968, it was the first 9mm double-action auto ever used by any U.S. state agency."

 

[isp2605]

When the 39 was released to the US public it just sat there. Americans weren't ready to warm to the 9mm quite yet. Up until then about the only 9mm guns being sold were BHPs, P-38s, and the few Lugers. There just wasn't the defensive ammo for it back then like there is today. FMJ ammo was about it. There was some SP stuff but it usually performed like FMJ, seldom getting any expansion. The good thing was surplus 9mm ammo was really cheap. After the ISP went to the 39, followed soon after by Salt Lake City PD, the 39 began to move a bit better.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

There was some SP stuff but it usually performed like FMJ

Have to disagree with you there. Back in the early 1980s, I did some tests on the soft point jacketed 9mm ammo that was available. In wet newspaper, they expanded to about .41 caliber, weight retention was almost 100%, penetration was almost as deep as FMJ, and the tip was such that it would have made a nasty wound channel; much nastier than a FMJ 9mm.

 

[Brian Williams]

I have a S&W 642 with a 940 9mm cylinder installed. 9mm is much more than 38 out of it, I do not have a Chrono but The noise and recoil of a 9mm are much more sharp than standard 38 or 38+p.

The true arms race in a 9mm snub is the speed of reloading. With the difference in bullet shapes and loads they all can be just about the same defensively, the speed of 5 9mm in moonclips for a unload/reload makes for a few seconds of time.
I would like to see what a load of 135gr LSWCHP would do in a 9mm case for a snubbie, The mold would cost a bit, but it would shine for a Taurus 905, Ruger Sp101, S&W 940.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

The 135 gr SWC HP load in a 9mm meant for a revolver would be awesomely effective, I'm sure. 9mm velocity matched to the maw of a bullet like that would be very destructive to tissue.

 

[isp2605]

Back in the early 1980s, I did some tests on the soft point jacketed 9mm ammo that was available.

Not talking about the ammo in the 1980s. I'm referring to the SP stuff in when we started carrying the 9mm in 1968 and early 70s. That stuff rarely expanded. In the mid/late 70s we went to W-W 125 gr SP that gave a bit of expansion, best I recall it was in the .41 area like you mentioned. Altho, going from .355 to .41 is not what anyone would call great expansion in today's terms. It did penetrate very deep due to the very limited expansion. The major advantage to the rd was it's RN shape which meant if was a very reliable feeder.
In about 1978-79 we went to Federal 95 gr SP that really expanded altho I don't recall now what kind of numbers we got. It clocked at 1400 fps out of my 39. The only results I saw personally with that rd was on road hit deer. Recovered bullets were the classic mushroom shape. I've probably still got some recovered ones around here someplace if I knew where to look for them. Where that rd had problems tho was going against barriers like cars. It was too lightly constructed and came apart.
Again, until the 9mm was more widely accepted by LEOs, which started in the mid 70s, did there come about an improvement in bullet design and performance. Prior to that the available rds gave little better performance than FMJ.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Where that rd had problems tho was going against barriers like cars.

Well, inside of a car is actually a very safe place to be if someone is shooting a handgun at you. Front windshields are great at deflecting, and the first round will hardly ever hit what you're aiming at, and then with low velocity slivers. Doors are good stoppers too. All kids of steel in there. Being good at penetrating cars is asking a lot of any handgun caliber that you'd ordinarily carry for gunfighting purposes.

 

[isp2605]

Well, inside of a car is actually a very safe place to be if someone is shooting a handgun at you. Front windshields are great at deflecting, and the first round will hardly ever hit what you're aiming at, and then with low velocity slivers. Doors are good stoppers too. All kids of steel in there. Being good at penetrating cars is asking a lot of any handgun caliber that you'd ordinarily carry for gunfighting purposes.

I wouldn't call being inside a car "a very safe place to be if someone is shooting a handgun at you." Cars are terrible cover. They offer a lot better concealment than dependable cover. Car metal is very thin. What stops the rds are all the parts like window motors, bracing, etc. Depending on a window motor and a cross bracing is pretty risky business. A car is better than nothing but none of them are armored vehicles.
I've witnessed and investigated numerous shootings where rds went right on thru the windshields, car doors, and car bodies to inflict serious injuries and fatal damage. I've also done considerable testing of vehicle penetration of the various service ammo.
The Fed 95 gr rd that I was referring to just didn't hold up against barriers. Since a lot of our work involved stopping cars we needed a better rd that would hold together thru metal and glass. The Fed 95 gr just wasn't up to that task.
A few examples:
A good friend was struck twice from a BG shooting a BHP loaded with Fed 115 BPLE. He was approaching the front right fender when the BG fired a total of 3 rds at him. The first one went thru the front windshield and struck my friend alongside his head, knocking him down. He regained his feet and as he was bringing up his 870 he was hit by another rd fired thru the front windshield which struck him in the wrist and traveled up his forearm, exiting at the elbow. At that same incident another agent fired 8 rds thru the back window with a 439 loaded with Fed 115 BP. All rds penetrated thru the back window, some also went thru the center door post, some struck the head rest, and 2 went on out thru the front windshield.
Another Troop at another stop was fired upon from a BG crouched behind an open car door. We were carrying Fed 115 gr BP or BPLE at the time, don't recall now. Troop hit 3 rds in the door, all 3 rds completely penetrating the door. One of those rds hit the BG near the knee, traveled up the outside of his leg causing what looked like a knife cut, reentered near his upper thigh, exited thru the meat of his butt, and lodged in his wallet, perfectly expanded. 3 other rds hit the windshield right where it meets the dash. Those rds penetrated the windshield but were stopped by the dash. Another rd hit the headlight (the BG's car was facing the Troop). The rd went thru the headlight, thru the metal bracket holding the light, thru the top of the inner fender well liner and stopped when it hit the inner fender.
Another shooting I did the Troop returned fire thru the back window of truck using W-W 115 gr JHP+P+. That rd went thru the back window, thru the headrest, and struck the BG in the back of the head.
Did another shooting when we were carrying W-W +P+, 2 rds went thru the driver's door, completely thru the passenger door, and on to parts unknown.
Did another shooting where victim was shot in the left side of her head behind the ear with a .357 loaded with 125 gr Rem SJHP. Rd completely penetrated her head and exited at an angle thru the front windshield.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I overstated it. I just meant that it's asking alot of a handgun round to reliably hit someone inside with enough force to put them out of action. Not really a "safe place." Shouldn't have said that. Once the front windshield is shattered by the first shot, it is not much of a shield against handgun bullets, especially not at close range. The doors do have a lot of metal in them from the motors and whatnot, but if you miss all that, there's just sheet metal, which, as you said, isn't much at stopping bullets.

 

[klingy]

.38 vs. 9mm snubby statistics (with .357 thrown in)

Here's what I've got over the years of chronographing. Under the description of the particular loading are, respectively, the average velocity, the standard deviation, the power factor and the resultant muzzle energy.

Smith & Wesson
642 Airweight
.38 Special
1.875”

Federal
125 gr.
Nyclad +P
JHP
870
23
109
210

Speer
125 gr.
Gold Dot +P
JHP
857
17
107
204

Federal
158 gr.
Nyclad +P
SWCHP
771
13
123
208

Smith & Wesson
940
9 mm
1.875”

Cor-Bon
115 gr.
+P
JHP
1211
20
139
375

Remington
115 gr.
+P
JHP
1156
21
133
342

Remington
124 gr.
Golden Saber
BJHP
985
32
122
267

Remington
124 gr.
Golden Saber +P
BJHP
1064
15
132
312

Smith & Wesson
640
.357 Magnum
2.125”

Federal
125 gr.
.38 Special +P
JHP
858
15
107
204

Remington
125 gr.
.38 Special +P
SJHP
885
26
111
218

Speer
125 gr.
.38 Special +P
GDJHP
855
39
107
203

Remington
125 gr.
Golden Saber (medium velocity load)
BJHP
1089
29
136
330

Pro-Load
125 gr.
JHP
Tactical Lite (medium velocity load)
1124
12
141
351

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"In wet newspaper, they expanded to about .41 caliber, weight retention was almost 100%, penetration was almost as deep as FMJ, and the tip was such that it would have made a nasty wound channel; much nastier than a FMJ 9mm."

I used to have some Speer 125 grn RN JSP rounds that performed well in duxseal and wet phone books, but when I tried it in ballistic gelatin, it just blew through it like FMJ. I'd have to agree with ISP2605 on this.

As far as cars being good cover, as has been stated, not for long. With the window rolled down, car doors are okay for a couple of rounds, then stuff just starts getting through.