9x23

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I'm intrigued with the 9x23 WIN cartridge and enjoyed reading this thread from the archives....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=1667


I'm a little surprised how little info is available, especially since it seems like a cartridge with great potential, and would love to hear some more updated anecdotes from guys who are using it.

I recently saw a 1911 converted to 9x23 by a highly regarded pistolsmith listed for sale, and have to say, it looks like an awesome package.
 
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I agree the 9x23 Win has intrigued me for quite some time. As the old thread listed, much of my knowledge of the round came from the Dane Burns site.

I am surprised it hasn't caught on more. It seems like a better round than the .38 Super, which admittedly itself isn't very popular. Many complain about the cost of ammo. It depends on what you're comparing it to. Compared to 9MM it is pretty expensive. Compared to .45ACP it is pretty much in the same ballpark and that is the comparison that needs to be made since the 9x23 Win fits in guns sized to hold .45ACP.

I'd like to see STI make the Trojan available in 9x23 Win, since (last time I checked) it is available in 9MM, .40S&W, .38 Super, and .45ACP. Seems like a natural since it already comes with a ramped barrel.
 
since I just got in trouble here for posting quotes let me say this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x23mm_Winchester
as you can see in the second paragraph the uspsa power factor was lowered.

Why? People were doing crazy things to make power factor like seating bullets way way out to fit in more powder or using heavier bullets(read as longer bullets) in general uspsa saw that the game was and had been a gear game and wanted to get back to a game every one could play with an out of the box gun and off the shelf ammo.

I like 9x23 but it got outdated before it was done being new.
38 super on the other hand stays around because RIA EAA and Taurus continue to flood the market with 38 super guns every year. Also many countries have the "no military ammo rule" meaning guns are ok to some extent but you can not have stuff like 9mm and 45acp. this is also why 9x23 is still being manufactured, much of that gets exported.

On the velocity issue I frequently load 135 gr bullets@ 1450 fps I have never tried heavier bullets as power factors are well more than met with this loading.
 
crazy things to make power factor
Click to expand...

I understand the gun game origins of the cartridge and though I'm certainly no USPSA guru (I've only participated in one USPSA event), I think that lowering the power factor to 165 made sense.

What I find interesting is that the 9x23 WIN seems to perfectly fulfill the holy grail quest to get .357 mag performance from a reliable feeding, autoloader. Even more so that .357 SIG does.

Unless ammo. manufacturers load it to it's potential, the cartridges benefits will never be realize by anyone other than reloaders. I can see why they might shy away from selling hot 9x23 WIN as it can be chambered and fired in older .38 supers and 9mm largos that can't handle the high pressure of the 9x23 WIN, and would likely blow apart and hurt someone.
 
I understand the gun game origins of the cartridge and though I'm certainly no USPSA guru (I've only participated in one USPSA event), I think that lowering the power factor to 165 made sense.

What I find interesting is that the 9x23 WIN seems to perfectly fulfill the holy grail quest to get .357 mag performance from a reliable feeding, autoloader. Even more so that .357 SIG does.
Click to expand...

I'm with you there, and this has always perplexed me too. .38 Super is semi-rimmed, which typically is less reliable in feeding than a rimless design. .357 SIG is bottle-necked, which introduces 2 problems: (1) bottle necked cartridges typically can't be reloaded with carbide dies so case lube is needed, and (2) before the neck-down the brass is the same width of .40 S&W, which in Open division means that you're sacrificing magazine capacity.

Some people load regular-old 9x19 up to Major PF, but that gets you into a pretty high pressure/hot round.

Seems like 9x23 is the perfect answer - you get the same high capacity and feeding reliability of 9x19, but the extra case volume gets you easily into Major PF territory without the high pressures.

As with all things though, 9x19 is whats established, so those guns sell better, hence ammo sells better - its hard for something new to catch on.

I know the reasons behind it, but its a shame that ammo costs are so related to popularity rather than components cost. 9x23 would barely cost anything more than 9x19 if that were the case, and .380 (which I really do enjoy to shoot in the little mid-sized guns) would cost less since it's similar to the 9x19mm with a little less of everything.
 
Yes, properly loaded 9x23 smokes .357 Sig--but it requires a 1911 or similar "long-action" semiauto, whereas "9 in a .40 bottle" can squeeze into a compact frame.

If I were looking for a high-speed 9mm variant, 9x23 would be it. It's straight-walled so it gives up no magazine capacity (unlike .357 Sig and its big brother, 9x25), and it's hotter than .38 Super. Pretty much perfect.
 
how much hotter though? and what would be the point? How many fps do you really gain bullet weight for bullet weight? Personaly I have never had a feed issue with a 38 super. I am getting 1450 fps in my reloads and in factory ammo.
Again please do not get me wrong I like 9x23 and it is too bad it did not take off. But with todays other options its just too expensive.

Oh and also what is diffrent between 9x23 and 38 super TJ?
 
I load 9x23 (124-grain JSP at 1450 fps to simulate the factory load and 147-grain JHP at 1400 fps that I used for deer hunting a few years back) in a Series '80 Colt smithed by John Harrison. I like the round quite a bit. The 147-grain load is smack dab in the midst of .357 Magnum territory, and it works well on the small deer in Alabama.

I just worry about running out of brass. I started with two cases of Winchester's 124-grain USA load and still have most of the brass from those two cases. I do lose one or two pieces per range session, mostly because I cannot find them. Brass attrition is an issue as most places do not even know what 9x23 is, let alone stock it.

My solution was to pick up another five cases of Winchester factory ammo, which is sitting in one of my safes. That should be enough brass for my lifetime.
 
Eric F said:
what is diffrent between 9x23 and 38 super TJ?
Click to expand...

I'm just figuring this out, so please others chime in if I mess this up...

Max SAMMI pressure....
38 super 30,000 psi
9x23 WIN 40,000 psi

9x23 WIN has nearly identical outer geometry, but the case is much thicker and more robust.

I think 1,400 fps 147 gr pills in 38 super is pushing max, while in 9x23 WIN, your just getting warmed up.

Speaking of which, I'd love two see a section photo of the two side by side.
 
Shadow 7D said:
Oh, and here I was thinking Styer.
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You can use the Starline 9x23 brass cases for reloading for 9mm Steyer, 9mm Largo, or 9mm Bergman-Bayard, as long as you hold the loads down to the original pressures and velocities of these older cartridges. It's nice to have brass available that will work in these guns, since factory loaded or mil-surp ammo in these calibres is getting rare and hard to find, not to mention expensive.
 
A whole lot hotter really. Makes major easily. You're right, though, that it would be cost-prohibitive if you shoot only factory ammo.

Way I see it, if you're looking at getting/building a new gun, there's no reason not to go with 9x23 over .38 Super--unless you won't reload.
 
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You're right, though, that it would be cost-prohibitive if you shoot only factory ammo.
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9x23 Win is expensive, but it's still in the price range of 38 Super and .45ACP.
 
I don't play with 9x23 much these days. I don't need the power factor for IDPA. I run my Commander in the mid-to-hot range with Starline 38 SuperComp brass. The brass costs less, so if I leave some behind in a match I'm not totally upset over it.


The 38 Super/SuperComp is a straightwall cartridge, either with the semi-rim, or without as in the SuperComp case. The 38 Super TJ is just another variation on a 38 Super case, without the semi-rim, and the extractor grove set at a slightly different angle.

The 9x23 (and the 9mm for that matter) are both ever so slightly tapered cases. The huge difference is in the internal case capacity between the 9x23 and the 38 Super (and all it's new variations). If I took a mid-to-hot range powder charge from a 38 Super and dropped that same weight in a 9x23 case, the pressure's going to be much higher. Less space in the case.

And If I took a hot (old IPSC Major) 38 Super load and used it in a 9x23 case, the pressure would be on the edge of safety. I have cratered and pierced primers, even with the stout CCI rifle primers, walking right up to that edge.


The 9x23 was a good answer during the heyday of the gun games to safely achieve Major Power factor for those who didn't want to reload. Or for those who had decided they had experienced SuperFace for the last time. It's still a good round, but both 38 Super and 9x23 really only come into their own when hand loaded. Or when loaded by a smaller, custom ammo shop.

Factory Silvertips in both calibers (9x23 and 38 Super) leave a lot of un-used performance on the table.


I'm quite happy with mid-to-hot range 38 Super performance levels. It's a good mix between power and manageable recoil for me, especially in an aluminum frame.
 
The 9x23 is a great round that was virtually stillborn due to horrible marketing.

If they had called it the "9 Super" instead of a European sounding caliber designation, it would've done better.

I like mine, but I shoot the 9x19 barrel in it the most.
 
Well Zak a stout 38 Super - meaning something more than an anemic factory load - is a fun cartridge to shoot. You can go light and fast, or heavy and still pretty fast compared to a 9mm. A hot 9x23 is a good handful. Lots of muzzle blast and sharp cracking supersonic recoil.

Both the 38 Super and the 9x23 are very versatile rounds.
 
Yeah, I like no rim and some taper. I understand their 9 Super Comp brass is 9x23. I want one for the same reason I have a 10mm. I think an SVI would be a great platform for one.
 
Pretty much Zak. The Winchester 9x23 case has more support in the base, and a little less case capacity than a Starline 9mm SuperComp. It's also more expensive.
 
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