!@#$%^&*()_+!!!!! i give up! SA buggers it again!!!

[HD]

the guy i sold the ww2 sa gi to just called , he finally got to shoot it ...
every 3-4 rnds , 1 would fail to extract / eject with the brand new fitted SA extractor that was in the gun ...!@#@$#%%^&**()()_+!!!
he said he dropped in one of the many gi extractors he had laying around and all the problems stopped...
he says the SA extractor is .025 too short oal.
can't SA get a single !@##$%^&*&*(()_=! thing right ? :banghead:

 

[glocker1911]

So tell us, how do you really feel? No need to hide your feelings here!

 

[f4t9r]

I Hope you feel better now that you let it all out !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gudel]

He sold the SA, got the HK instead. won't have that problem anymore. strike that, won't have any problems with that one.

 

[HD]

except for 1 tiny little item ...

they sent the H&K in the wrong caliber....

 

[agtman]

Wow.

That's not something you see happen with a Glock or S&W autoloader.

Maybe it's time for a change. Hmmm?

 

[Old Fuff]

HD:

There is an old saying ....

It goes... They don't make them anymore like they used to.

Somewhere out there someone must have a Springer that works. I'm sure we will hear from them shortly. As Tuner says, "Even a blind ... finds an acorn sometimes.

Surely you must know by now that good = old, and new = (something we can't say around Art's grandma).

Once you understand, things will be better. Maybe...

 

[dsk]

I bought one of the first Springfield WW2 models to come out, and it functioned perfectly out of the box. Since then I've asked local gunsmiths and dealers I know and trust about the ones they've sold, and they say reports on reliability have been mixed.

It's just a shame that everybody cuts corners on their 1911's and that getting a reliable one is such a crapshoot. This kind of crap never went on back in 1944. Of course, young mens' lives were on the line so they all HAD to care.

 

[Old Fuff]

dsk:

I fully agree with what you said, but I would point out that some users of the current crop of pistols are still putting their lives on the line for various reasons.

The trouble is that today’s manufacturers couldn’t care less. They’re focus is on their own bottom line, and not much else. They seem to presume that what they are making will end up being “big-boy toys” and therefore stringent (and costly) attention to details isn’t necessary.

In 1944 – and during previous years – commercial Colt’s and USGI 1911 & 1911A1 pistols, and the parts that went into them, were manufactured under strict quality control and inspection systems. In the case of arms sold to the military, the system involved both company and government inspectors. You know this to be the case because you understand what the numerous small letters and numbers stamped on pistols of that era mean.

There were both material and dimensional requirements and the specifications were adhered to. As a consequence the pistols – to no one’s surprise at the time – worked with monotonous regularity.

Of course some of the currently made guns work, and seem to work well – at least for a time. But as you said, it’s a crapshoot.

An intelligent person does not stake their life, or the lives of others on a crapshoot. Fortunately good used guns from earlier times are still available in the second-hand market. Otherwise one might be well advised to turn to some other platform with a proven reputation for reliability. Apparently the companies that make them still do care.

 

[jc2]

Wow.

That's not something you see happen with a Glock or S&W autoloader.

Maybe it's time for a change. Hmmm?

I don't know. It seems like LAPD pulled on their Glock 21s (actually individual officer's G21s since Glocks are not the issue weapon) and has forbidden the use of the Glock 21 due to reliability issues. Maybe we all need to go back to the 625.

 

[1911Tuner]

Springfield

Careful Henry and Fuff! I've been jumped by a few over my suggesting that
Springfield's extractors are...somewhat iffy. 'Course, some of'em own and sell the guns, so I have to plug that part into the equation.

Although the Springfield GI Mil-Spec is likely the best bargain on the planet right now...that's not to say that they don't have their problems...and far too many to ignore it. I carry mine, but it's been upgraded extensively with either USGI parts or machined aftermarket...and a Kart barrel. If it was the only one I had to choose from in a "Grab and Run" situation, I'd have no reservations...but like I said...the gun is now basically a dead ringer for a good '44-'45 Rand or Colt, mechanically speaking. I'd send it to Springfield for evaluation and suggestions, but I'm afraid they'd wanna keep it.

One of my other carry guns in the rotation is a rebuilt '43 Colt that came to me in plastic bags...for 75 bucks. A real junker that rose from its own ashes. 6 weeks in my spare time resulted in a 100% winner that'll break your checkbook before it fails to function...and it'll part your hair farther than I can clearly see your hairline. Not pretty by any stretch, but handsome in its own way. Let's just say that the gun has a lot of "character." I wouldn't trade it straight up for a 2,000-dollar Baer.

 

[Old Fuff]

My remarks weren't pointed directly at Springfield Arsenal, but in my book they meet the description I gave of "today's manufacturers."

Yes, if you have the necessary knowledge, tools, and experience (as Tuner does) one can rebuild almost anything and get a reliable and fully functional gun. Browning's design isn't all that complicated.

But very few people have his (or my) resources, and are not in a position to rebuild a pistol so that it will work - and they shouldn't have to. In my book anyone that lays down the bucks for any firearm should be able to expect that it will at least function.

So ordinary buyers have the following options.

(1) Buy a new (whatever) and hope and pray that it works like it should.

(2) Buy the same pistol and pay out the bucks to have it rebuilt like the one Tuner described - with new lockwork and a hand-fitted barrel (that he had to finish reaming the chamber on incidentally).

(3) Pay out the really big bucks to have a custom pistol made from scratch. If, and only if, the builder knows what he's doing will get you a really reliable gun - but at least you'll know what's in it.

(4) Buy one of the older pre-1970's guns that were made the way they should be. At least you'll know that the parts meet material specifications unless something's been replaced.

Now if the pistol is supposed to be a big-kid toy any of the above choices may be O.K. But if you plan to use the gun as a personal weapon... Well then we have a whole different ball game.

I would personally go for options #4, #2 and #3 in that order. But others might not be able to afford anything except #1.

When that was the case I'd start looking at other platforms, made by manufacturers that offered products with a proven reputation for reliability.

While my personal preference will always remain with Browning's 1911 design, the fact is that because of my age I was able to obtain my personal guns when they were still "made right," or I built some to my own demanding specifications that were at least equal to those originally made by Colt.

But if I was younger, and my neck was on the line, there is no way I would trust it to an out-of-the-box Springfield Armory product, or any other of the current popular makes and models that might be defined as “standard production.” Hi-end custom or semi-custom guns might or might not be a different matter. But when they started running more (sometimes substantially so) then an older Colt I would likely go in a different direction.

From the Fuff's point of view, his life is worth too much to depend on a "crap-shoot product." Others can make their own decisions. :banghead:

 

[1911Tuner]

Reliable

If ya want a really good 1911, and the custom bells and whistles aren't a prerequisite...go search and find aWW2 era GI pistol that still has the original or correct parts. Look for one that has the arsenal rebuild stamps, and one that has a ratty finish, or even a few bruises. The collector value isn't much on these, and many can be had for as little as what a new GI Springer sells for.

Find a smith who understands the pistol and does good work, and have him rebuild it to original specs, with maybe a barrel upgrade, since many are shot out or corroded. You'll have less in the gun than a Springfield Pro or one of the higher-priced semi-customs...and the gun will be one that you can bet your life on.

Refinishing will push that up a little, and is optional. Personally, I don't even do that. Money better spent for ammo and a few more magazines,
but it's a matter of "Suum Cuique" on that question. From the Latin: (Layman's translation) It's yo' thang. Do whatcha gotta do!

 

[dsk]

dsk:

I fully agree with what you said, but I would point out that some users of the current crop of pistols are still putting their lives on the line for various reasons.

The trouble is that today’s manufacturers couldn’t care less. They’re focus is on their own bottom line, and not much else. They seem to presume that what they are making will end up being “big-boy toys” and therefore stringent (and costly) attention to details isn’t necessary.

That's my point. I feel as if Colt, Kimber, Springfield, Para, etc. simply look at 1911's as purely recreational firearms, and don't seem to look at them as serious tools for law enforcement and military (let alone civilian CCW holders!).

 

[WarMachine]

Well, my GI that I picked up a few months ago from Academy has been running fine; no hiccups thus far.

My cousin went for the regular Mil-Spec and the only problem he had was a grip bushing backing out after he over-tightened the screws.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

No offense Tuner, but when you start seeing "real GI's" for $399, give me a call.

The odd couple or even couple dozen don't count. They simply don't exist in real numbers at that or even 2x that price. That you and your shooting buddies may have a few in your collections doesn't mean much to the other 22k members of this forum.

Nothing to do with the fact that the base Springfields do need help, but claiming you can walk out and buy "the real deal" for the same kinda money is simply not true.

 

[HD]

how hard is it to make a 1911 that works 100% ?

My remarks weren't pointed directly at Springfield Arsenal, but in my book they meet the description I gave of "today's manufacturers."

Yes, if you have the necessary knowledge, tools, and experience (as Tuner does) one can rebuild almost anything and get a reliable and fully functional gun. Browning's design isn't all that complicated.

But very few people have his (or my) resources, and are not in a position to rebuild a pistol so that it will work - and they shouldn't have to. In my book anyone that lays down the bucks for any firearm should be able to expect that it will at least function.

So ordinary buyers have the following options.

(1) Buy a new (whatever) and hope and pray that it works like it should.

(2) Buy the same pistol and pay out the bucks to have it rebuilt like the one Tuner described - with new lockwork and a hand-fitted barrel (that he had to finish reaming the chamber on incidentally).

(3) Pay out the really big bucks to have a custom pistol made from scratch. If, and only if, the builder knows what he's doing will get you a really reliable gun - but at least you'll know what's in it.

(4) Buy one of the older pre-1970's guns that were made the way they should be. At least you'll know that the parts meet material specifications unless something's been replaced.

Now if the pistol is supposed to be a big-kid toy any of the above choices may be O.K. But if you plan to use the gun as a personal weapon... Well then we have a whole different ball game.

I would personally go for options #4, #2 and #3 in that order. But others might not be able to afford anything except #1.

When that was the case I'd start looking at other platforms, made by manufacturers that offered products with a proven reputation for reliability.

While my personal preference will always remain with Browning's 1911 design, the fact is that because of my age I was able to obtain my personal guns when they were still "made right," or I built some to my own demanding specifications that were at least equal to those originally made by Colt.

But if I was younger, and my neck was on the line, there is no way I would trust it to an out-of-the-box Springfield Armory product, or any other of the current popular makes and models that might be defined as “standard production.” Hi-end custom or semi-custom guns might or might not be a different matter. But when they started running more (sometimes substantially so) then an older Colt I would likely go in a different direction.

From the Fuff's point of view, his life is worth too much to depend on a "crap-shoot product." Others can make their own decisions.

Reliable
If ya want a really good 1911, and the custom bells and whistles aren't a prerequisite...go search and find aWW2 era GI pistol that still has the original or correct parts. Look for one that has the arsenal rebuild stamps, and one that has a ratty finish, or even a few bruises. The collector value isn't much on these, and many can be had for as little as what a new GI Springer sells for.

Find a smith who understands the pistol and does good work, and have him rebuild it to original specs, with maybe a barrel upgrade, since many are shot out or corroded. You'll have less in the gun than a Springfield Pro or one of the higher-priced semi-customs...and the gun will be one that you can bet your life on.

Refinishing will push that up a little, and is optional. Personally, I don't even do that. Money better spent for ammo and a few more magazines,
but it's a matter of "Suum Cuique" on that question. From the Latin: (Layman's translation) It's yo' thang. Do whatcha gotta do!




or you can avoid all this happy horses#*+ and buy a sig 245...

 

[Old NFO]

If ya want a really good 1911, and the custom bells and whistles aren't a prerequisite...go search and find aWW2 era GI pistol that still has the original or correct parts. Look for one that has the arsenal rebuild stamps, and one that has a ratty finish, or even a few bruises. The collector value isn't much on these, and many can be had for as little as what a new GI Springer sells for.

Find a smith who understands the pistol and does good work, and have him rebuild it to original specs, with maybe a barrel upgrade, since many are shot out or corroded. You'll have less in the gun than a Springfield Pro or one of the higher-priced semi-customs...and the gun will be one that you can bet your life on.

Refinishing will push that up a little, and is optional. Personally, I don't even do that. Money better spent for ammo and a few more magazines,
but it's a matter of "Suum Cuique" on that question. From the Latin: (Layman's translation) It's yo' thang. Do whatcha gotta do!

Agreed! Sadly, I'm old enough to remember seeing the old fiber barrels full of MILSURP 1911's for $50- you pick it, and barrels of M-1 Garands and Carbines for $17 your choice... Of course I was not smart enough to buy more than one of each...:banghead:

None of my guns are "pristine" collectors, all of mine show the wear of shooting them year in and year out. If I don't shoot it, I don't keep it.
just my .02 cents, remember YMMV, etc...

 

[1911Tuner]

Not There?

No offense Tuner, but when you start seeing "real GI's" for $399, give me a call.

The odd couple or even couple dozen don't count. They simply don't exist in real numbers at that or even 2x that price. That you and your shooting buddies may have a few in your collections doesn't mean much to the other 22k members of this forum.

Nothing to do with the fact that the base Springfields do need help, but claiming you can walk out and buy "the real deal" for the same kinda money is simply not true.

Maybe not in LA bro...but around here you will occasionally run into a real dog (I never claimed that you could get a decent pistol for that)with slide and frame mismatch for 400-500 bucks. IthaColts, UnionRands, etc. Almost bought a 1918 GI Colt for 650 last spring at a Charlotte show, but decided to pass. Somethin' a little shady about the guy. The '43 Colt that I rebuilt as described elsewhere here...75 bucks less than 10 years ago, disassembled and with a few parts missing.

And...the post wasn't addressed to all 22k members...Just the ones willin' to go hunt for an ugly, disabled orphan and bring it home for a little TLC.

 

[scubie02]

well, all three of my springers have been fine. I'd sub in "better" parts, but sort of don't want to mess with something that's working fine.

 

[horge]

...the Springfield GI Mil-Spec is likely the best bargain on the planet right now...that's not to say that they don't have their problems...and far too many to ignore...

Mebbe that's no bargain, then, Johnny.

 

[Old Fuff]

Gunsnrovers:

I presume the Springer pistol you have in mind for $399.00 (street price) is one of their low-end mil-spec models. If it come out of the box working like it should you have a winner. But as the threads and posts on this and other forums show, that sometimes isn't the case, and this being obviously true I wouldn't like to stake my life on one - as the manufacturer made it. Upgrading it with better quality parts might make a difference, but this would up the base price – maybe considerably depending on what all was done.

This is HD's issue, and the core point of his thread. He has had considerable experience with Springfield Armory products, and that experience has convinced him that he shouldn't trust his life and safety carrying one. He didn't switch to something else because he wanted to, but rather because he concluded that he had to.

Now, if you shop around you can sometimes find an older Colt or USGI .45 that someone hung a set of Micro (or whatever) adjustable target sights on. Back in the 60's they were considered to be cool, but now most buyers consider them dogs. I see them in the $600.00 range, and sometimes less. I recently passed on one, because I didn't really need it, and I was sure someone else really did.

If you remove the adjustable rear sight and replace it with a lower fixed one; or if you keep the adjustable sight, but have the slide milled out to lower it, and in either case cut down the front sight to match the height of the remounted or replaced rear sight, you will have a respectable belt gun without much additional investment.

It will cost $200.00 or more in parts and labor if you have the Springer rebuilt with quality parts to duplicate the older pistol's "real-steel" internals.

No one has done more then Tuner to help others that ended up with a lemon - of which there have been way to many. If he charged for his advise he'd be far richer then he is. But those with problems who come to this and some other forums have had the benefit of his expertise for free. He is a treasure, and we are fortunate to have him.

While $399.00 older Colt's and USGI pistols may not (or may, depending on the condition) be found for such a low price, it is equally true that it's unlikely that a currently made gun in that lower price range will be something one would feel was good enough to stake their life on without some upgrading.

But what you carry is your business, not mine...

 

[1911Tuner]

Points

Maybe GunsnRovers missed the point. Sorry. I'll try again.


Don't think in terms of "Collectible." Think rather in terms of a project that can be massaged into a solid, reliable carry gun...hopefully without mega-intensive surgery...but not limited to that prerequisite. Depends on how deep your pockets are and how much time and effort you want to invest. The results are usually well worth it, in any event.

The choices aren't even limited to USGI pistols. You can find Argentines in pretty good shape for as little as 300 bucks, that require only a little work to bring'em up to good, solid service grade sidearms that will be much better and more reliable than a 1,000-dollar Springfield...mechanically speaking...for close to the same money.
Even less if you can do your own work.

Helps to carry along some appropriately-sized drill rods to check for excessive pinhole wear....A dial caliper, an AR-15 firing pin, and a small brass hammer to make the teardown
and reassembly more expedient. If the guy refuses a teardown...wave your money at him and ask if he really wants to sell. If he still refuses, walk. There are others who will allow it. Also good to obtain Clawson's little bible and be familiar with the various differences in the small parts and acceptance marks. You can use it to get the price down a little when you spot a non-original substitute part. Look for arsenal rebuild/refinish marks. Price comes way down with those, even with a correct pistol.

Oh yes...They're out there. Seek, and you shall find.

PS:

Thanks for the good words Fuff. Means more than you know. To date, I've done pro bono work on over 50 pistols for forum members here and on other sites. Love of the breed, I guess.

Henry...Sorry for the hi-jack. Rant on, brother! Maybe Springfield is watchin'. <---Springfield...or whomever else it may concern.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

I get the point.

Sorry, but I assumed (and that's a dangerous thing to do) that your comment about being able to get a decent GI Colt/Ithaca/Rem Rand for the same money as a Springfield GI and I still don't believe that's the case. Maybe the exception, but certainly not the rule.

For $399 you're getting a base pistol. Decent frame and slide. The ones I've come across can be done right accurate once a bushing is properly fitted. Not a bad price for a frame, slide, and barrel already fitted. Throw in decent fire control pieces and some other real steel and you're getting upwards towards $800 or so. Now you have a real pistol in your hands. That's also where I've seen most "real GI's" start at. Most actual more towards the $1000 mark.

Looking at it that way, you realise you getting a decent chassis upon which to build. Left alone, it's a toy. With a little effort and some quality parts, it's something you can stake your life on.

As I said in my post, the Springfields do need help. They shouldn't, but they do. In light of new gun prices these days, at $400 you're certainly getting a fair price on a platform to start from.

 

[1911Tuner]

Assumptions

GunsnRovers said:

Sorry, but I assumed (and that's a dangerous thing to do) that your comment about being able to get a decent GI Colt/Ithaca/Rem Rand for the same money as a Springfield GI and I still don't believe that's the case. Maybe the exception, but certainly not the rule.
***************************

I figured that's what you thought I meant...and I agree. For a decent, correct USGI, you'll pay a premium. Base slide and frame...Maybe, but most of the incorrect parts guns I've found have most or all of the GI small parts
if they're complete guns. They're just not original or correct for the era or contractor.

That said...I'm negotiating a buy on a pretty nice, correct Rand. It's got a few light bruises and some carry wear...I'd rate the gun at 80%...but it's mechanically sound and I'm pretty sure that it's gonna come home with me by next Friday for somethin' in the 900-dollar neighborhood.