A couple CCW questions

[chetrogers]

I keep putting off getting my ccw.I have a few question that im curious about and hope anyone can answere it..

When you have a CCW and lets say for what ever reason you pull your gun out to defend your life..Do you have to report it..Is it a crime to pull you gun out and point it at a bad guy and not report it.

And what happens when you pull your gun out and the bad guy leaves .Can he sue you for doing anything.."If you dont shoot"

I am 25 years old and am a very big guy the reason i havnt got a ccw is because i feel that i would get pulled over for something and tell the oficer that i am carrying and he would make me get out of the car at gun point and get on the ground.ect ect ect.

 

[pax]

Chet,

Where in Oregon are you? If you are in the Portland metro area, I would really recommend that you come up to FAS near Chehalis (about an hour and a half up the road) for one of their free Handgun Safety Seminars. The seminar takes about 6 hours on a Saturday and covers all the relevant CCW laws in OR & WA, together with a fairly good discussion about the ethics and legalities of using deadly force in self defense. There's a range component, too.

If that is too far to drive, I'd recommend you call the local NRA folks and ask them about a CCW class. You don't have to get a CCW after taking the class, but the class would cover all of the local info you need to know. I'm not sure how much the OR CCW classes cost -- Oregon members feel free to chime in here.

When you have a CCW and lets say for what ever reason you pull your gun out to defend your life..Do you have to report it..Is it a crime to pull you gun out and point it at a bad guy and not report it.

It is foolish to pull your gun out and not report it. See my post in http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29430 for a more complete explanation of why I say that.

And what happens when you pull your gun out and the bad guy leaves .Can he sue you for doing anything.."If you dont shoot"

In Washington, if pulling your weapon out wasn't a reasonable thing to do, you could be charged under the brandishing law. It is illegal to carry a weapon "in a place or manner that warrants alarm..." for the safety of others. If it was justified, you're fine.

And yes, you could be sued for almost anything you do or don't do. You could get sued for cutting someone off in traffic, for not keeping your sidewalk in good repair, or for any number of other things, so it's not unreasonable to think you could be sued for scaring some thug with your gun. Such lawsuits aren't that common, though. I think most genuine thugs prefer to avoid dealing with Johnny Law. (And, btw, that's one more reason I say it's foolish not to call the police yourself when you've had an encounter -- get your side down on paper, establish yourself as the Good Citizen who was wronged...)

I am 25 years old and am a very big guy the reason i havnt got a ccw is because i feel that i would get pulled over for something and tell the oficer that i am carrying and he would make me get out of the car at gun point and get on the ground.ect ect ect.

Well, that's always possible. Hey, anything is possible in this world. But it ain't that likely. Friend of mine is a harsh-looking guy who's been pulled over for a half dozen tickets in the past five years or so, showing his CCW permit each time. Never been treated with anything less than courteous respect and never had a problem. Worst that happened was one cop up near Seattle took his gun for the duration of the stop (he gave it back along with a warning, no ticket).

HTH.

pax

 

[sm]

pax nailed it.

My resident CCW is flagged on my DL, I must inform officer. My non-resident CCW is not flagged. I have not had a traffic violation in 20 yrs I guess.

I was pulled over once because my vehicle matched description of one used in a felony. Cold wet ground ain't to bad-just doing their job and these LEO's didn't know me. DL run and I had already informed them I was armed. Sure enough I'm an honest upstanding citizen, the CCW sped things up. Apologies, and followed home to make sure I didn't get pulled over again.

In this litigatious society, CYA and call first. I have called first the cops, then attorney, then an NRA instructor friend.

The CCW is a responsibility, one has to dig deep and be honest with themselves. I used to assist in teaching CCW, yes we had some students that after taking a free class with responsibilites/legal/regulations decided they didn't want to CCW. Had one come back- she decided she wouldn't get attacked again-she regretted her earlier decision. Sad , but true many times its after an incident one chooses to take responibility.

Make the trip pax offered, be open-minded, listen, ask questions. Good Luck.

 

[Double Maduro]

Chet,

Before I got my Oregon CHL I spoke to several LEO's. They all said that when someone they have stopped hands them their permit along with their drivers license that they actually relax.

You have been proven to be an upright citizen with no criminal history and no mental illness.

As for pulling your gun.

I firmly believe that the first clue a BG should have that you are armed is when they feel the bullet. I suggest that you don't pull your gun unless you need it and then don't use it to try to frighten the BG away.

I will be looking into the classes that PAX mentioned, they sound interresting.

You can also go to http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/7110/ for more info on the laws in any state.

I don't carry all the time, one of the main reasons I got my CHL was to let the politicians know how many of us are gun owners. It may help when it comes to law passing time.

DM

 

[Ala Dan]

Cardinal Rule Of Thumb

Never, Ever Pull A Gun On Someone Unless You Intend To Use It!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[arinvolvo]

Ala, a gun may be USED to deter an attack....I dont think that USING a gun means that it needs to be fired...

If a man is charging me with a machete....I immediately lift my shirt, start to draw my weapon....he sees, and high tails it in the opposite direction, Im not going to shoot him in the back...nor would anyone here...

Gun are meant to protect us from grave and immediate danger to our lives....if the sight of the gun protects us, then it was USED correctly.

 

[SKN]

Oregon statutes

Chet:

There is no statutory requirement to report your display of a firearm, however, statute law considers that such a display without justification a violation (brandishing/menacing). If you were to present the firearm and not report it you leave yourself open to the possibility of the predator who flees calling law enforcement and making you the offender. You really should take a class, and, if you intend to obtain an Oregon CHL you are required to.

Class presenters, the detail of their curriculum, and their fee vary from county sheriff's offices (Multnomah) to gun shops (Northwest Armory) to community colleges (www.cccpstc.org). Once I even saw a vendor at the Rose City Gun Show who was giving a 30-minute class for $35 between the tables of his set up at the show.

Oregon statutes also permit the officer to disarm you in any contact you might have with them and, though there is no requirement to inform them that you are armed, you should make the fact known to them. I'd be willing to guess that in 99/100 cases you'll simply get into a friendly conversation with the LEO about firearms, yours and theirs, when you do.

pax:

Last I heard Marty's free seminars did not satisfy the OR training requirement for a CHL application. Have things changed?

 

[FJC]

I've had it drilled into me by my instructors and others that if you ever pull your weapon out, you should call the police.

Why? So that your side of the story is on the record.

For example, say you're walking along and that machete-wielding guy appears. You draw your weapon, he turns and runs. You don't shoot (as you shouldn't). You decide, screw it, why involve the police.

In the meantime, machete-guy runs to a phone booth and calls 911, describes you, says, "Crazy guy with a gun stuck it in my face and said he was gonna kill me! It's a shiny .45!"

Police come up, grab you up, and now you're in for some serious inconvenience, at least. You can just picture the police saying, "So, you felt threatened enough to draw a deadly weapon, but not enough to then report it to the police?!?"

Something VERY similar to this happened in Michigan to someone else. A victim of some nasty road rage, the immediate incident came to a close when the licensed concealed carry person (after pulling over and having the road rage person come running up to his car) let the road-rager see he had a pistol. It was not pointed at the person, just made visible.

The road rager then called the police, and reported the "crazy person with a gun who was waving it all over the place." Our licensed carry person, last I heard, was facing the loss of his carry permit for "brandishing." Word is if he had called the police and reported it all, things would have gone better for him...

 

[280PLUS]

had a nasty bumper hugger on my tail last nite,,,

me, the SO and the kids in my car,

the speed limit 55, my speed 63-64, him, right on my bumper

is my life and are the lives of my family in jeopardy right now?

yes

did i seriously consider pulling my pistol and holding it up for him to see?

yes, it was VERY tempting

did i do that?

no

instead, i calmly took my time about getting around the cars i was passing

then i got out of his way

did i flip him the bird as he went by?

no

did he flip me off?

don't know, gave him the new york stare (like he wasnt even there)

what did i accomplish?

i AVOIDED the situation

thats another rule of thumb you should work with

learn to walk the other way, if you are pursued, you then become justified in pulling your weapon

if continue to be pursued, you are then justified to shoot

if YOU are pursuing, you are now in the wrong unless you are pursuing to save another life, (ie a kidnapping)

but not property,

you can't shoot a guy while he's running away with your car stereo

as tempting as that also is,,,

of course, as usual, thats just my $.02

m

 

[TRIDENT]

In Texas you can shoot a thief in your yard as long as it is dark outside. There was a story last year in the paper about a guy that shot two thieves with his deer rifle for stealing his rooster. No charges.

 

[pax]

Last I heard Marty's free seminars did not satisfy the OR training requirement for a CHL application. Have things changed?

SKN,

They do not. I mentioned them because

1. they're free (always a good selling point),
2. they provide a lot of info and a place to ask questions, and
3. Chet wasn't sure if he wanted a CCW or not -- so satisfying the OR statutory requirement for CCW was a moot point.

FWIW, the free Saturday classes can be augmented with a 1-day, $95 additional class, providing more trigger time, and that does satisfy the requirement. As others mentioned, there are shorter, cheaper, and less comprehensive classes available in Oregon itself, if meeting the requirement is the primary goal.

However, if the goal is to learn some good stuff, the FAS freebies are a great place to start.

pax

There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. -- R.A.Heinlein

 

[SanduneCC]

A follow up question to the original post:

Who would you report it to - whichever local LE agency the incident takes place in? Thanks.

 

[El Rojo]

If you felt he situation was bad enough you displayed a firearm, you should immediately be reporting the situation to the law enforcement agency that can get a unit to your location as soon as possible. The only time you draw your gun or bring it out is if you feel your life is in immediate, life threatening danger. If some guy is mouthing off to you, you don't show him your gun to "win" the arguement.

The thing about choosing to carry a concealed weapon is it should actually make you more of a meak and live and let live individual. Once you start carrying you should be more willing to let other people have their way as long as it doesn't endanger you life. I don't want to get into some pissing match with some a-hole driver, because the only option I really have if we get into a physical confrontation is to shoot him. I don't want to do that.

Now if someone one was charging at me with a machette, I know I am not going to be in the "deterrence" mindset. I personally am going to be in the "overwhelming force to stop the threat" mindset. Unless the guy starts charging at you with the machette at 100 yards, I can't see any reason why he would be charging at you and you would have more than 1-4 seconds of reaction time. That leaves the guy about 0-2 seconds to change his mind, carry out a retreat, and convince me that he is no longer a threat. So the idea that your pistol does not have to be fired in order to "stop" the situation is a legitimate idea. The charging machette man example doesn't really illustrate the concept very well. Maybe a mugging with a knife and the guy is not too close yet would be better. A charging man with a machette just leaves the impression in my mind that the charging party is not really concerned with any rational thought of good tidings and joy for my well being. Where as a mugger might just want your money and not willing to risk his life for it.

 

[Smoke]

In Texas you can shoot a thief in your yard as long as it is dark outside. There was a story last year in the paper about a guy that shot two thieves with his deer rifle for stealing his rooster. No charges

There has to be more to this than meets the eye....if it is true I'd like the details. Do you have a link? Can you tell me where this took place?

Thanks,

Smoke

 

[280PLUS]

el rojo said,,,

"I don't want to get into some match with some -hole driver, because the only option I really have if we get into a physical confrontation is to shoot him. I don't want to do that."

exactly, exactly,,,

you have to learn to let it all go

smile and be extra polite at all times, even in the face of extreme - holedness,

i like to smile, wave and mouth "THANK YOU" at the guy who just cut me off

that really torques 'em

learn to put and maintain space between yourself and a potential confrontation

not that theres any of that out there...

take care

m

 

[chetrogers]

so when do you know when to pull out your weapon..If some guy is pushing you "your not in life or death situation" if he is punching you "thats not life threatening" If he is coming at you with knife "That is"

If some guy pulls you out of your car or hits your car window Is that life threatining?

Just trying to see why i need to get a ccw...Sounds like its something that would just cause more problem then not..
Thanks guys

 

[King]

If a guy is punching you, that could be life threatening since he could kill or produce great bodily harm to you.......

If he's pushing you it might be "if" you feel like your life is being threatened. In the latter, what he's saying might increase the threat ("I'll kill you!") of if you feel like he's going to take add'l steps and start escalating the potential threat to something worse I think you'll know which is which when it happens.

A guy coming at you with a knife from close quaters is a threat.

Stay in condition yellow and try to see the problem coming. Once noted, avoid it if you can. Your brain is your best weapon.

 

[sm]

Smoke

Use link-> penal code->search property+force
just a <snippet>
HTH



http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-...=128615&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=2&CQ_TLO_DOC_TEXT=YES


§ 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property



A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:



(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and



(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:



(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or



(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and



(3) he reasonably believes that:

<snip>

 

[sm]

Chet,
I really suggest you listen to pax and consider going to FAS. The decision to CCW is a personal one.

Forums and web sites can give one some info, attending a class-a free one to boot- is going to answer a lot of questions.

I went to- http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/oregon.

Umm, I'm legal in 23 states(plus any added due to new legislations) I can't get an non res Oregon permit...one has to be from one of the surrounding 4 states ( I think I read that right). Darn--I was trying for the whole set .

Gee, If I ever make it to Oregon, I'll have to go unarmed and stay close to someone whom is.

 

[280PLUS]

i don't know,,,

but IMHO i'd say if someone is punching you or pushing you, you have failed to maintain the space i was talking about.

granted, it is not ALWAYS possible to do so

if a situation has progressed this far you are in immediate danger of losing control of your weapon to your aggressor

this is why you must always back away

then if the aggressor continues to pursue you, you are justified in exposing your weapon, as you must never let someone like this get close enough to possibly gain control of your gun

if this person continues to pursue you after youve shown them you are armed, it can only be assumed that they fully intend to try to take your weapon

yes, carrying a firearm opens a pretty good can of worms

when you examine it closely...

m

 

[Zip06]

Chet - Don't get the CCW yet. Do some of the following first: First, take a CCW class; or spend some money and have this discussion with a lawyer; or take Marty's class; or dedicate a couple of days to researching this topic with the "Search" function and read everything or; save up some dinero and take Mas Ayoob's LFI course when it comes to Marty's. Your answers on this thread makes me think you are reacting to possible events instead of thinking about consequences or thinking actions through. Good luck.

 

[Ryder]

Chet.

I'd have to be forced to shoot someone. Being forced to do things I don't want to do makes me a very unhappy camper.

It is for protecting life. There's no mistaking such a thing. The criminals I've dealt with in the past all got a great deal of enjoyment from verbal threats and they were very specific as to how they intended to kill me. How exactly does such a person see my gun and leave without being shot? This just does not compute. I won't draw until I have to shoot.


Gunshots attract way too much attention. Not reporting that hardly seems intelligent. If you scare them off who will be their next victim? No innocent person deserves that. At least report it so the police can watch for them, the next victim may not be left in any position to be a witness.

 

[HeavyHaul]

A lot of good information here, thanks. I am looking at getting my CCW permit myself. This thread cleared up a few things I wondered about. Next step, filling out the papers and giving up the money

 

[pax]

Falling down on the job...

Chet, I hope my earlier answers were of some use to you.

Moving this down to Handguns: General. Look for it there.

pax

A committment to avoidance, deescalation and deterrence is your number one option for personal security. -- Andy Stanford

 

[David4516]

I took a class at "the Place to Shoot" in Portland for $30 for the requirement. The CHL fee was $65, so all total I spent < $100, I think it was well worth it.

Chetrogers, you should go for it. Just casue you've got a CHL doesn't mean you have to carry all the time. You can just carry when you're out camping or somthing, when you are far away from any help. When you're in town, the gun can stay in the safe. Whatever you are comfortable with. You might never carry at all, but at least you'd have that option open to you if you changed your mind latter on...