A Couple Of Black Powder Guns

[ThomasT]

My bud is selling most of his guns and I am listing them on GB for him. He had a couple of BP revolvers I thought I might want. One was a 36 Navy by Pietta. I bought that one. The second is a brass frame ASM 1860 Colt. I decided I didn't want it because I mistakenly thought it was Uberti and didn't want to deal with the short arbor problem.

So I just looked closer and it is an Army Sam Marco and after taking it apart the fit of the arbor is almost perfect. There is around a .015 miss alignment. So should I buy this gun also? I can get it for $200 if I want.

I have seen both shot before and they were properly cleaned after shooting. I saw him shoot the 36 after it had been stored loaded for a year. All 6 went off as they are supposed to. I paid him $250 for the 36 caliber. Here are a couple of pictures.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Hey ThomasT, it doesn't matter what you get, if it's a later mod. Pietta or any other make (Uberti, Army San Marco, San Palo blah blah blah) it has a short arbor so, depending on price, it may be a good deal. The fix is simple so no reason to avoid any of them really.

Mike

 

[Paul R Zartman]

Buy it...if not, send me more details on it, more pics are always welcome here
Paul

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Grab them while you can, as 45 dragoon said the arbor is an easy fix. I personally have 5 ASM revolvers, only one is questionable as to quality, and it's a remmie. The open tops have been pretty decent. They tuned up really nice and I have used them as demonstrators to shamelessly promote my work.

 

[ThomasT]

Hey ThomasT, it doesn't matter what you get, if it's a later mod. Pietta or any other make (Uberti, Army San Marco, San Palo blah blah blah) it has a short arbor so, depending on price, it may be a good deal. The fix is simple so no reason to avoid any of them really.

Mike

Hi Mike. I have read the article about fixing a short arbor on a Uberti and it sounds simple. The Pietta 36 is just about perfect so needs nothing. The ASM is very close and only overlaps a few thousandths of an inch when the barrel is inserted on the arbor and swung around to the frame. And there are no impacts or ratchet marks on the recoil shield. I don't think either gun has had a hundred rounds fired through them. I would like them just because I don't own a BP revolver. I did buy the 36 and its a nice gun. I will need to get 36 caliber balls. I have 44 balls and a Lee mold.

Thanks for the reply. In will let you all know what I decide on the 44 Army. My biggest concern wasn't the arbor but the brass frame. And after eading your comment in the other thread about reducing the travel amount of the cylinder to stop beating the recoil shield up I think this gun is good to go. The barrel to cylinder gap is tiny.

 

[ThomasT]

Here are a couple more pictures of the brass frame Army. I tried my best to show the slight mismatch of the barrel and frame but I can't get a good picture. But its not much. The pictures of the frame show no damage from firing and peening the recoil shield by the cylinder.

One curious thing is that neither gun has the safety locking pins on the cylinder. The hammers have the notches but they will not lock on the cylinder.

 

[ThomasT]

This seems to be about as good as I can get on pictures showing the frame to barrel alignment. When assembled and the wedge drove in the barrel to cyinder gap measures .003. I cannot get a .004 feeler gauge to go in.

 

[45 Dragoon]

That's not a valid test. In fact, you can't do that test on a new revolver without dressing the arbor somewhat.
I take it there's a witness mark against the bottom of the arbor hole where the arbor rubs? That's really all the test you would need if the arbor is really reaching the end of the hole. If so, drive the wedge in and measure the Endshake. If not, you got a short arbor.


Mike

 

[ThomasT]

OK Mike I will try that. But I am not 100% sure what you are telling me. But thanks for trying.

Any idea why there are no safety pins on the cylinders. Neither one have them even though the hammer faces have the cut outs for the safety pins to lock into.

 

[ThomasT]

OK I tried measuring both guns with the hammer on half cock so it didn't add any pressure to the cylinder. The brass framed 44 has a .003 gap and when pulling back hard on the cylinder I cannot get any perceptible movement. The steel framed 356 Pietta has a .0015 cylinder gap at rest and pulling back on the cylinder I can get a .006 feeler gauge in there. So I guess that is a .0045 endshake?

 

[webrx]

Mike, when measuring the arbor do you go oversized then work it down? Seems if the arbor is tapered you could get a false reading unless you go too big so you have a positive confirmation that you are hitting the spacer.

also, would a small crush washer or brass washer work or would the impact eventually crush it too much?

aka it needs to be steel.

 

[1KPerDay]

@45 Dragoon can you please direct me to your tutorial on fixing short arbors (if you have posted one)? I just came into posession of an ASM brass-framed Army (with a navy grip frame) and I'm thinking of turning it into an "avenging angel" tribute gun, but of course I'd like to shoot it at least a few times. If I drive the wedge in so it protrudes from the right side the cylinder locks up. It doesn't appear to have been fired. I just got the crusted-on fingerprints off of the brass and since the gun is really not historically correct and the loading lever at the latch is really wobbly side to side I was thinking of chopping it.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Insert a small washer into the barrel lug, drive the wedge in, if the cylinder locks up either try a thicker washer or add one and check the barrel to cylinder gap. If 2 is too much you can stone one down until you get the gap you're looking for. Once that is determined grease the arbor, clean the barrel hole good with degreaser, JB weld the washers in the hole and assemble the barrel to the frame and drive the wedge in firmly. Let it set up, should be good to go.

 

[ThomasT]

Insert a small washer into the barrel lug, drive the wedge in, if the cylinder locks up either try a thicker washer or add one and check the barrel to cylinder gap. If 2 is too much you can stone one down until you get the gap you're looking for. Once that is determined grease the arbor, clean the barrel hole good with degreaser, JB weld the washers in the hole and assemble the barrel to the frame and drive the wedge in firmly. Let it set up, should be good to go.

Right now with the wedges driven in tightly the 44 ASM has a .003 B/C gap and the 36 Pietta has a .0015 B/C gap and it does not rub. I am happy with both of those and don't know how a filler would make it any better. Maybe the Pietta could use a little bigger gap but circle cut from a sheet of notebook paper may make it too big. I may try that just for grins. Thanks for the tip.

I do have an old set of feeler gauges that have turned dark and are no longer useable I could cut shims from.

 

[ThomasT]

OK on the 36 i tried a thin washer that was a perfect fit diameter wise and inserted it in the arbor hole but it held the gun apart so it would not close at the bottom. So I used a .375 punch and cut two thin sheets of paper and inserted those in the arbor hole and the same thing. I could not pust the gun closed enough to get it to close up. My conclusion is that this guns arbor is about perfect. Unless I did something wrong I'm not changing anything.

Forgot to add that while I was fiddling with the gun I thought I would try a cap on the nipple since all I have are #11 caps. I expected the cap to be too big to fit without falling off but it fit so well I had to use a knife to remove the cap. Thats good news because I have lots of #11 caps but no #10 and as everyone knows there are no caps to be found. I thought I would end up having to buy new nipples.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

If they are at those dimensions leave em alone, if it doesn't change by driving the wedge in firmly your in the ballpark. The main thing is to get both pieces to become one piece every time you assemble the gun. Plus it doesn't try to wreck itself when you shoot it.

 

[gtrgy888]

If you can fit a steel washer in the channel, your arbor is still short and needs correcting for optimal longevity and accuracy of the gun. The turning barrel test is invalid since Uberti made a bowl shaped recess as a “fix” for the short arbor. For my 1851 and 1860, I started with two #6 steel washers and filed one down until the barrel just barely sat flush against the frame with just a glint of daylight visible that goes away after driving in the wedge. That correction and loading authentic black powder about 18% below full makes both my guns shoot to point of aim.

 

[45 Dragoon]

ThomasT, your Pietta may be ok if it is of fairly late manufacture ( within the last dozen yrs.).
The witness mark I posted about should look something like this


Even though this is a corrected example, any contact between an arbor and the bottom of the arbor hole should have a ring or nice sized crescent like the one in the pic.

Mike

 

[45 Dragoon]

1KPerDay, what I do is use the head of a ss Philips head sheet metal screw (#12 for belt pistols, 14 for horse). The rounded side of the head locates nicely in the cone shaped bottom of the arbor hole and allows excellent support. The flat side (after you remove the shaft) is easily dressed if you use a drill motor with a Philips bit and a bench belt sander (wear glasses) sand some, test fit - repeat.
When you get contact at the frame / barrel lug, start measuring the endshake. At about .004" / .005" , I start dressing the end of the arbor till I get to .0025" - .003".
Drilling and tapping from the end of the arbor through to the wedge slot, a 1/4" X 28 smooth set screw becomes an adjustable wedge bearing for the wedge. Makes it very nice to "customize " your wedge placement and adjust for any wear.

Mike

 

[paul harm]

I would be more worried about the brass frame. Many guys on other BP forums claim that after shooting a brass frame revolver the cyl will start to leave impressions on the face of the frame. After awhile you can't shoot it. I have two nickel plated brass framed NMAs I bought before reading this and haven't shot them yet for that reason. I didn't realize the nickel plated guys had brass frames. They claim it happened with 25gr loads in a 36 cal gun. I would think light loads might be ok. Both mine are 44s, both engraved nickel, and I may shoot them with 20grs of powder. It's the load I used when shooting 25yd targets on the National range.

 

[ThomasT]

ThomasT, your Pietta may be ok if it is of fairly late manufacture ( within the last dozen yrs.).
The witness mark I posted about should look something like this

Thanks Mike. Thats a great help. Now I know what you are talking about. I did try to add a spacer to the steel frame Pietta 36 by adding two thin sheets of paper down the arbor holes and when I did it shimmed the barrel back far enough it would not close at the bottom where the locator pins are. So I am thinking the arbor is a good fit on the gun. I did try a steel washer that was about .015 thick and the bottom was gapped the same amount. I think I'm going to call it good on that gun. The end shake if I did it right is .0045.

The brass framed gun is the same way almost no end shake at all. I mean none I can measure or really feel. The B/C gap is .003. I like it.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Any idea why there are no safety pins on the cylinders. Neither one have them even though the hammer faces have the cut outs for the safety pins to lock into.

Several Italian manufacturers who first made cylinders with all the pins, dropped it down to one pin at some point and then did away with them all together. I can't speak for the Pietta, but I have ASM's in all three states.

 

[44 Dave]

I have added pins to 2 of my cylinders Soldered them in with low temp. solder, caution solder flux can remove blueing.

 

[shootemup58]

45 Dragoon I'm a bit confused you said
The rounded side of the head locates nicely in the cone shaped bottom of the arbor hole and allows excellent support
But in the picture you posted the rounded side of the head is facing up in the arbor hole

ThomasT, your Pietta may be ok if it is of fairly late manufacture ( within the last dozen yrs.).
The witness mark I posted about should look something like this
View attachment 1063253

Even though this is a corrected example, any contact between an arbor and the bottom of the arbor hole should have a ring or nice sized crescent like the one in the pic.

Mike

The rounded side of the head locates nicely in the cone shaped bottom of the arbor hole and allows excellent support.

Maybe my mind isn't working yet this morning can you clarify this for me. Thanks

 

[45 Dragoon]

45 Dragoon I'm a bit confused you said
The rounded side of the head locates nicely in the cone shaped bottom of the arbor hole and allows excellent support
But in the picture you posted the rounded side of the head is facing up in the arbor hole




Maybe my mind isn't working yet this morning can you clarify this for me. Thanks

The surface you see in the photo is the shank or shaft side of the head. That is the side that gets "fitted " ( ground against the belt sander). The round or top of the head is in fact against the cone shaped bottom of the arbor hole. The "flat" area does have some contour because of slight slack in the belt, but it doesn't present any problems with arbor contact ( as you can see in the photo).



Here you can see the contact surface of the end of the arbor.

Mike