A day at the range

[Ed Meinel]

I wanted to do something fun today, so I went down to the NRAHQ range to get in some shooting (it's nice living less than 5 mi away ).

Well, there was a wait, so I went to the waiting area to watch people shoot. At the table in front of me, some yahoo pulls out his revolver to remove the scope caps. I figure he must not know how to read, because this is clearly against the rules. Oh, well.

As he goes to put the gun back in the case, he points it RIGHT AT ME!!!

ME: Jumps out of chair to get out of line of fire
ME: WHAT THE !@@$#$@@^&*%$ ARE YOU DOING????

HIM: Huh?

ME: YOU HAD YOUR GUN POINTED RIGHT AT ME!

HIM: No I didn't.

ME: OPEN YOUR CASE AND LOOK!

HIM: It wasn't loaded.

Right, we've all heard that one before...

ME: YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO POINT YOUR GUN AT ANYONE!!

HIM: I had my hand over the muzzle.

Oooo, THAT'S going to stop a .357 mag...:banghead:

ANOTHER YAHOO IN THE ROOM: Hey, man, calm down. No harm -- no foul.


ME: Leaves room to flush the adrenaline from my system.

I felt much better after going through 200 rounds of 9mm.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

An unthinking, inadvertent breach of the safety rules is one thing, but the attitude when caught at it stinks. He really should have been reported to the RSO. I hate to be a "snitch" as much as the next guy, but sometimes it is necessary.

I felt much better after going through 200 rounds of 9mm.

See, it wasn't all a waste.

 

[Eric F]

Sounds a bit over reactive but justifiably so. I had my close call and I think I will make a thread about it.

 

[Ed Ames]

Do you respond the same way when someone's car is pointing at you in the parking lot?

After all, about 4,900 pedestrians died in traffic accidents last year, vs. about 700 people who died due to firearms accidents.

 

[tinygnat219]

The OP has a big point here. The NRAHQ range staff are incredibly anal about this kind of thing and the guy pulling his gun out should have been thrown out of the range.

 

[Feud]

Do you respond the same way when someone's car is pointing at you in the parking lot?

After all, about 4,900 pedestrians died in traffic accidents last year, vs. about 700 people who died due to firearms accidents.

Begone logic, you have no place here!

 

[waterhouse]

I don't fault what you did. I've done it. I'll probably do it again at some point in the future. No one likes having a gun pointed at them.

However, having tried both ways, I have found that a polite but stern "Would you please watch where you are pointing that?" or "Please keep your gun pointed downrange." tends to work better than yelling and swearing.

Usually when I am polite, the response is something like "I'm sorry, thanks for the reminder." or "Thanks for the heads up, we all have to watch out for each other out here." Sometimes when I am polite the only response I get is a blank stare, and I ask if they are familiar with the 4 rules. This can open up to be a teaching opportunity so that the same mistakes aren't made repeatedly. This is much more difficult if you start by jumping out of the way and swearing at someone.

 

[Ed Ames]

Begone logic, you have no place here!

It was actually a semi-serious question.

I realized the other day that I have no hesitation about walking through a parking lot even when people are driving in the same lot. I'll walk right in front of cars, expecting the drivers to stop or go around me, even though each of those cars represents far more lethal potential than any reasonable hand weapon you can think of. When I visited the east coast I was amazed at the jaywalkers who just walked into traffic and expected the cars to stop... I, having been raised on the west coast, was stunned to see people step off the curb right in front of police cars (causing the cops to hit their brakes hard) and not even get tickets... but more to the point I was surprised at how cavalier the pedestrians were about trusting the skills and mechanical systems of the drivers around them. A small (2000lb) car going 30MPH (not unusual in an east coast city) has 60,000ft-lbs of kinetic energy. Sorta puts the 500ft-lb .357 in perspective, don' it?

Which raises the question... do the people who get vocal about (don't get me wrong... legitimate) muzzle discipline issues get equally vocal every time an oncoming driver makes a left hand turn at a stop light and "Sweeps" them with their car? Or every time a driver in a parking lot starts their engine and shifts into gear while they are crossing behind the parking spot?

 

[Feud]

I know, that's why I chose the word "logic".

 

[Eric F]

Do you respond the same way when someone's car is pointing at you in the parking lot?

Come on one has little to do with the other. Talking oranges and cattle here!

We all exercise safe driving(I hope) and we all should exercise good gun safety.

 

[fishyman]

I kind of agree Ed, people treat guns as though they somehow transcend normal every day objects and are especially dangerous.

Are they dangerous? Absolutely.

But hearing people arguing about which gun cleaner/lube to use "Mil-tec vs. Breakfree" etc, is ridiculous. Do they treat their cars the same way? Synthetic vs non-synthetic motor oil... I wonder when the last time the average guy on here got a transmission flush or something. I wonder if they change their breaks at the first sign of squeaking, or let it go until it's convenient. I wonder if they ever use their cell-phone or change the radio station while they're driving.

I bet the guns they have are the cleanest things they've got. Funny thing is, most will never have to use it in a defensive situation, but they drive their cars every day, endangering OTHER people's lives in the process.

I'm just using CARS as an example. It could be anything.

Modern guns are nothing more than defensive tools that will fire 100% of the time when you pull the trigger, 99% of the time. To be honest, every gun is a good gun in this respect. If you buy a cheap Taurus Millenium, sure it may break after 10,000 rounds. But if you don't fire it, just keep it in case, I'm sure if you need it to fire it will. Guns are just guns.

 

[Apple a Day]

Do you respond the same way when someone's car is pointing at you in the parking lot?

When someone invents an SUV that goes 1250 feet per second when you push a single button that might become a valid question.

 

[fishyman]

When someone invents an SUV that goes 1250 feet per second when you push a single button that might become a valid question.

When you pull into a gas station, do you walk around to every pump and make sure no one is using their cell phone while filling up, or unnecessarily opening/closing their doors, or rubbing a balloon against their hair? There's been documented cases of static electricity causing fires at gas stations... Are you worried about filling up at pump 2, wondering if some yahoo at pump 15 is acting like a jerk and might blow everyone up?

There's always a risk inherent with stepping outside of your house every morning. Hell, waking UP is a risk.

Getting in you car to go to work is a risk. A drunk driver or a negligent driver might crash into you, no fault of your own. You might die. You might get struck by lightning. An asteroid, the size of a pea might come down and strike you in the head.


Going to a gun range is risky in itself, people just need to not overreact.

But mitigating risk is good.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Ed,

Do you respond the same way when someone's car is pointing at you in the parking lot?

After all, about 4,900 pedestrians died in traffic accidents last year, vs. about 700 people who died due to firearms accidents.

Perhaps if they did there would be far fewer pedestrian deaths

Selena

 

[bloodedsky]

I think if a person has a gun pointed at them in that situation, they reserve the right to act however they cotton-picking please.

 

[AndyC]

Philosophically-speaking, I don't so much mind people making mistakes at a range - we all had to start learning somewhere, after all - but it's the resulting attitudes which drive me up the wall.

Look, pal, I'm trying to help you so that we can both be safe and I'm being friendly because I realise that you didn't do it out of malice... but don't give me an attitude when I'm trying keep you from killing yourself or someone else.

Sometimes I really wish it were legal to slap sense into some folks

 

[Eric F]

Some how this thread has found its way into the oven.

I bet the guns they have are the cleanest things they've got

wrong its my under ware.
My truck is way cleaner than my gun and My transmission was just replaced. Why not strike up the fact that house fires kill more folks than guns oh wait no there is always water. Water kills more folks than guns but no one feels threatened by a guarden hose. This is just stupid logic.

Are they dangerous? Absolutely.

you got that right guns are more dangerous but only because the media makes them so which is why we need to be extra cautious!
You guys are killing me with this petty bickering cars do not equal guns.

 

[bluestarlizzard]

But hearing people arguing about which gun cleaner/lube to use "Mil-tec vs. Breakfree" etc, is ridiculous. Do they treat their cars the same way? Synthetic vs non-synthetic motor oil... I wonder when the last time the average guy on here got a transmission flush or something. I wonder if they change their breaks at the first sign of squeaking, or let it go until it's convenient. I wonder if they ever use their cell-phone or change the radio station while they're driving.

they probably do if they are car nuts....


i think that the reaction (while understandable, because you don't know this guy from jack!) was a little over the top. a gentle reminder of range protocol may have been more the thing.

secondly, the vehical comparison. cars drive on a path (determined by the driver, the road, and other considerations) as bullets shoot in a trajectory. i assure you that i look both ways before crossing the street and i do not place myself in the middle of the path that a vehical is traveling down. if there is nobody in the vehical or no hand on the gun, it is unable to do anything, thus it is safe. when the vehical is being drivin or the gun is in hand it is considered safe to not to be in its path. now this is where the conparason parts. a vehical is a large and farely easy to spot. it is the duty of both the driver and the pedestrian to be careful. in the case of a firearm (especially handguns) the object is smaller and less clearly defined as safe. therefore it is the responcibilty of the handler to ensure safe practices. thus the four rules of firearm handling.
there is logic and there is logic. inanimate objects can be all dangourouse if used inappropreatly. rules (wiether official or unofficial) apply to each object that govern what is safe and what is not safe. the rules generally differ from object to object as the objects themselves are diffrent.

 

[catfish101]

When someone invents an SUV that goes 1250 feet per second when you push a single button that might become a valid question

Beat me to it.

I don't trust people in cars in parking lots either. I never assume they will stop in parking lots, traffic lights or stop signs.

 

[Pat-inCO]

Are they dangerous? Absolutely.

WRONG. The gun is not dangerous. They do not fire by themselves. It's the idiot with their booger-hook on the trigger that is dangerous.

First: ANYONE handling a firearm behind the firing line (waiting room) should have been ejected and not let back in for more than a year.

Second: If there was live ammo involved, ANY response that let's the idiot know they are doing wrong is justified. If there was NOT ammo involved, screaming and yelling does NOTHING to solve the problem and can make it worse.

I had an incident at a local store where a customer was looking at a side-by-side 12Ga. I watched the clerk verify that it was unloaded as he took it from the case. The "customer" pointed it at my head more than once as he looked at the action and other things. The third time I used two fingers to push the barrel away and said "You really ned to learn to not point that at people." He said "It's not loaded." and I replied "I don't care. It's a gun and you should not be pointing it anyone you do not want to shoot." He replied "Oops, sorry!" - - - Problem solved, and he proceeded to apologize several times.

Being firm yet polite has advantages.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

If you do that to someone, you should apologize profusely.

That sort of thing can happen, being an #*shole doesn't have to happen.

 

[Ed Ames]

Again, though... SUVs don't need to go anywhere near 1200fps.

A standard SUV has somewhere north of 100,000 foot pounds of energy when it's traveling through a parking lot. That's 200 TIMES the energy of a .357 magnum round. They can reach that energy level in 2.5 to 3 seconds. Figure 0.9 seconds MINIMUM for you to recognize and initiate a reaction to the threat and you've got 1.6-2.1 seconds to execute an avoidance. There is NO guarantee you can get out of the way of a large SUV if they decided to just gun it and mow you down....

...which totally misses the point. They can also just flick the steering wheel as they pass, forget to hit the brakes as they come to a stop, or any of 1000 other simple mistakes.

Selena... the problem is that you can't react the same way. When you are at a stoplight, stopped and with cars all around you, and someone makes a left hand turn in front of you they WILL sweep you. All it takes is a mechanical failure (steering system, fuel system, etc), a medical problem (loss of consciousness), or simple inattention (driver searching for the ringing cell phone and going wide) and you run a very good chance of dying even if you are in a car. If you are not in a car you run only a small chance of living. It's something you experience hundreds of times a day if you live, walk, and drive in a reasonably populated area. Reacting the same way would be very good evidence of insanity.

 

[Tokugawa]

In response to the "car" question- show me a car that can move at 1300 fps from a dead stop and yes, I will be upset with being "swept" with one.

As far as watching out while walking through a parking lot? Damn straight I do- very carefully. 35 years of surviving on two wheels have show me a significant number of drivers are inattentive.

There is simply no comparison between a large, slow moving object that requires
several inputs to move, and a very high speed projectile that can be fired with the touch of a finger. I have stepped out of the way of a lot of errant cars. No report on bullets yet, but I suspect the success rate on ducking is way down the scale.
After having a number of firearms pointed at me, actions cycled, and triggers pulled, I have NO tolerance for it anymore.

 

[Soybomb]

Has this thread really turned into a discussion as to if its wrong to get upset that someone has pointed a firearm at you? Now I've seen it all.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Ed,

My point is that if you give a tool's potential for harm the proper respect the chances of accident go down considerably. Most people respect a firearm's potential and give them that respect and demand it from others. Auto's are taken for granted. Familiarity may or may not breed contempt but it does breed familiarity.

Selena