A day at the range

[Mad Chemist]

From Oleg's sticky....(emphasis mine)

When debating, please avoid the typical logical fallacies common to debates at lesser forums. Remember that we should be more interested in a Socratic discourse, a search for the truth and a plan of action more than on winning the debates.

The four rules exist for a good reason. Following them is a good way to NOT get shot.
I have been in multiple motor vehicle accidents and one accident where I was struck by an SUV while riding a bicycle. Somehow I managed to survive them all without permanent injury. So even if I accept the premise of the vehicle/firearm analogy (which I do not because it is a false premise) the causal link to the conclusion is unsupported.

 

[Mad Chemist]

While my anecdote is certainly insufficient to disprove the claim, this doesn't matter, since the burden to prove the claim lies with the one who presents it. Actual evidence to refute it (if we accepted the false analogy in the first place) is that of the total number of motor vehicle accidents that occur annually, only a small percentage result in serious injury or death. This can be easily checked via NHTSA http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/.

 

[Rachen]

First of all, there are rules at the range. If he takes out his firearm where you are not supposed to take it out, he should at least be given a warning.
Gun safety sometimes have to be constantly reminded to people so they will remember them.

Second, I think you slightly overreacted. If it was me, I would walk up to him and tell him about it calmly, and casually, like a conversation between friends or classmates. That way, you both will feel good about it, and he can learn something from it, or remember some safety rules which he might have forgotten.

 

[Rachen]

I had an incident at a local store where a customer was looking at a side-by-side 12Ga. I watched the clerk verify that it was unloaded as he took it from the case. The "customer" pointed it at my head more than once as he looked at the action and other things. The third time I used two fingers to push the barrel away and said "You really ned to learn to not point that at people." He said "It's not loaded." and I replied "I don't care. It's a gun and you should not be pointing it anyone you do not want to shoot." He replied "Oops, sorry!" - - - Problem solved, and he proceeded to apologize several times.

That was an EXCELLENT response. The way we SHOULD handle problems. And he learned something too.

 

[Feud]

The four rules exist for a good reason. Following them is a good way to NOT get shot.

I don't think anyone is questioning that, the question is whether the person overreacted or not.

I would say that he did. By spontaneously yelling and cursing at someone who is unaware that they did something wrong may very well invalidate what ever point you are trying to make. A delivery perceived to be irrational will make the point, however rational, seem irrational as well. However a calm response (or better yet, a response from someone one who works there since people are more obedient to those who they perceive to be in authority) will go much further in delivering the point, and preventing the person from making the same mistake in the future.

 

[rocinante]

I wasn't there but if the exchange went exactly like you said maybe you are too high strung to be around firearms. I don't even buy he swept you with the muzzle.

ME: OPEN YOUR CASE AND LOOK!

That is stupid hysterics dude and the instant cussing and adrenaline pumping needs a chill pill. If he broke range rules go tattle on him but just by your own words I don't believe him touching his gun put you in imminent danger. But like I said I wasn't there.

 

[Ed Meinel]

OK, for those of you with such fragile sensibilities, I will amend the situation.

Well, there was a wait, so I went to the waiting area to watch people shoot. At the table in front of me, some sensitive and gentle man pulls out his revolver to remove the scope caps. I figure he must not know how to read, because this is clearly against the rules. Oh, well.

As he goes to put the gun back in the case, he points it right at me. I calmly remain in my chair, staring down the barrel of a .357 Magnum S&W.

"Ya know, I woke up this morning and thought to myself, 'I sure would like to have a 357 pointed right at my chest.' You must have read my mind!"

"No, no, don't bother pointing it somewhere else. This gives us an opportunity for a learning experience. Tell you what, you keep that pointed right at my chest, put your hand over the muzzle, and ... No, wait, I have a better idea! Point your gun at Mr. No-Harm-No-Foul, and for good measure, Waterhouse has also agreed to stand in the line of fire. Now, put your hand over the muzzle and fire all 6 chambers."

"What? Oh, don't worry about them; this is your 'learning experience.' They will just have to find their own."

"What have we learned? Either (1) your gun really is unloaded, or (2) your hand can't stop a .357. After we're done with this lesson, Ed Ames has agreed to stand in the parking lot and let us run him down; after all, it's just a parking lot..."

Or, how about this scenario:

ME: What the h-e-double-hockey-sticks are you doing???
HIM: What? What happened?
ME: You had your gun pointing right at me!!!
HIM: Oh, man, I am so sorry. I should have been paying more attention.
ME: That's OK, let's go do some shooting. Not at me, though.

I don't even buy he swept you with the muzzle.

And you would be right -- he didn't sweep me with the muzzle, he had it pointing right at my chest, as I stated in the first post.

But like I said I wasn't there.

Well, at least you got one thing right in your post...

 

[JWarren]

To anyone on this thread actually arguing that pointing a gun at someone carelessly is "Just one of those things and to get over it." :


Seriously... DON'T come around me with a gun.

My Dad used to tell me that I was one of two people that he'd EVER go Duck, Squirrel, or Rabbit hunting with: His Father, and his son. One trained him on Firearms safety, and the other he trained.

He used to tell me about the ONE time that he went squirrel hunting with my mother's brothers. Notice I said "ONE TIME?"


Seriously. Do NOT think its no big deal if you point your gun at me. Do NOT make me ask you twice it move it if you do. I won't ask a 3rd time.

If you don't think that you can follow that simple guideline, stay very far away from other people, and especially me.

-- John

 

[serrano]

But hearing people arguing about which gun cleaner/lube to use "Mil-tec vs. Breakfree" etc, is ridiculous. Do they treat their cars the same way? Synthetic vs non-synthetic motor oil...

Mobil 1 5w20 and WIX filters for all 90k miles.

 

[Wes Janson]

All I can say is, try working in a gunshop. You stop noticing it when you get swept after the second day. If every weapon were to have a bore laser inserted and activated, there would be literally thousands of "sweeps" every day, most both unintentional and completely unnoticed. Ever walk past a display of firearms with the muzzles pointed outward? Are they sweeping you? What if the employee pulls it out of the case and hands it to you? It's pointed at you the moment it's lifted out of the case (if you're standing in front of it as you naturally would be). Same as when it's put back in the case. The firing line is a different environment, however, and a loaded weapon on the line should ALWAYS be kept pointed downrange. That being said, a mechanically disabled/empty weapon (bolt removed, for instance) deserves rightly to be treated differently than a loaded firearm.

Obviously there's a logical conundrum created here. The rules say "Never let a muzzle sweep anyone". The rules also might as well say "Don't respirate while discharging firearms." It'd have just about the same health/safety risk/impact, and be just as untenable of a position in practice.

There is no such thing as a completely safe direction, there are merely safer directions. The distinction is indeed crucial.

I've never really tried to codify them, but I think the rational system would come up with something like the following:

1. Always treat weapons as loaded until proven CONCLUSIVELY otherwise.
2. Always do your utmost to prevent the muzzle from pointing at something you do not wish to destroy, whether unloaded or loaded.
3. Act intelligently at all times (credit for this goes to Rob Pincus).

Fact of the matter is, you can drill the Four Rules into people as much as you want, and they're not going to prevent an accident if someone is a complete idiot. Disarm 'em, or get out of Dodge, because there's not much else you can do. Treating the "Four Rules" as inviolable, literal commandments is an exercise in futility, as is made clear the first time someone tries to clean a firearm. Acting intelligently is a far safer bet in my book.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i was there for a gun "accident" happened real fast was damn unfunny.it was only my dog that got killed but i did learn a valuable lesson about guns.and a secondary lesson about my ability to control my temper just barely

 

[doc2rn]

At the table in front of me, some yahoo pulls out his revolver to remove the scope caps. I figure he must not know how to read, because this is clearly against the rules. Oh, well.

As he goes to put the gun back in the case, he points it RIGHT AT ME!!!

He pulled his firearm out (of the case/holster?) to remove the scope caps only to put it away again? Something is off here.

 

[OAKTOWN]

I always enjoy wondering, "Hey, is the firearm that's currently pointed at me is loaded?" Spices up the mundane trip to the range a little bit.

 

[poor_richard]

Has this thread really turned into a discussion as to if its wrong to get upset that someone has pointed a firearm at you? Now I've seen it all.

To anyone on this thread actually arguing that pointing a gun at someone carelessly is "Just one of those things and to get over it." :


Seriously... DON'T come around me with a gun.

My Dad used to tell me that I was one of two people that he'd EVER go Duck, Squirrel, or Rabbit hunting with: His Father, and his son. One trained him on Firearms safety, and the other he trained.

He used to tell me about the ONE time that he went squirrel hunting with my mother's brothers. Notice I said "ONE TIME?"


Seriously. Do NOT think its no big deal if you point your gun at me. Do NOT make me ask you twice it move it if you do. I won't ask a 3rd time.

If you don't think that you can follow that simple guideline, stay very far away from other people, and especially me.

-- John
________

+1 on both posts.

Safety rules are in place for a reason. If you can’t follow something so simple as not handling your firearm outside of the designated “Safe Area”, or not pointing the weapon in an unsafe direction, then how can you be trusted with that firearm.

Let’s see:
First rule he broke was to handle the gun outside the safe area.
Second rule he broke was to point the gun in an unsafe direction (at the OP’s chest no less).
He then demonstrated a complete disregard for standard safety rules by stating that it wasn’t loaded, and responding as if he did nothing wrong!

How far does it have to go?

Did the OP over react? Possible, but I wasn’t there. However, something should have definitely been said to the person, and when it was his response was inappropriate.

At my local range firearms are only allowed to be handled on the firing line. There is a bench behind the firing line where people can put accessories, ammo, coats, etc… The bench is about four feet from the firing line.

While at this range a couple weeks ago, there were two gentlemen there who took it upon themselves to take their guns back-and-forth between the firing line, and the bench. When I was back there loading a mag, one of them swept me with his 1911 while playing with the action. They also had their ammo back there so I didn’t see if they were loading back there or not, but it did appear so (because the one with the revolver was also taking it back there. There is really no need to take a gun back there. Every time they took the gun from one to the other meant they were most likely going to sweep me (or another lane). I calmly walked over to the one with the 1911 and gave him a polite nod/smile while pointing out the PINK sign on the bench that specifically stated “no firearms in this area”. After that, he seemed to comply (I continued shooting), however I did see his friend bring his gun back to the safe area (I had hoped that he would inform his friend). That’s when I left. I would have said something to one of the people working there, but by the time I packed all my gear and prepared to leave, they were on their way out.

It’s easy to say “no harm, no foul”, but when people take such a cavalier attitude toward safety rules, that is when accidents happen. I just don’t want to be that accident. I’ve had my shooting partner call me out on things as simple as range etiquette, as well as safety rules. While embarrassed, I was also grateful for it being called to my attention as, if it happened, it was unintentional.

The two gentleman I mentioned in my experience may, or may not have been loading/unloading their guns in the safe area. That doesn’t matter. What matters is that if they can’t be responsible enough to follow the simple rule of not handling guns away from the firing line, then why should I trust them to be responsible not to load them there.

Also, I don't walk in front of a vehicle that's rolling unless I am positive I have made eye contact with the driver, and we both understand that's what I'm about to do. Although I do think the comparison is a little silly.

 

[sig2022shooter]

dude, you over reacted. in a crowded gun shop its literally impossible to not sweep or point your weapon inadvertantely at someone. if he just took it out of the case you can usually be pretty sure its unloaded. do you freak out everytime a gun in a glass case laying on its side is pointing at you? stop trying to be a gun safety golden boy and get over it.

 

[fishyman]

Do NOT make me ask you twice it move it if you do. I won't ask a 3rd time.

Hahha, what are you going to do if the guy does? Shoot him? Come on... stop being an internet tough guy.

"If you do it a third, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, pack up and leave...?" hahaha

 

[BullfrogKen]

This thread has ceased to be constructive conversation. Folks have gone beyond bickering over whether or not we should take offense over having a gun pointed at us, and are directly insulting each other.


This one's closed.