A different twist on the relationship thread

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Pax Jordana

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Well, I've seen here that we've all been getting our daily doses of dr. phil.. so I've another one to throw out there.

My best friend just moved into a house. He's getting married in may, and I like her a lot. I taught him to shoot, and I feel safe around him and guns. He doesn't own any, however, nor does he have his permit. I'm glad to leave that part up to him and the missus. Thing is, he's been making noises about a loaner gun for home defense.

As the custom is among my people, if the door (to the house, apt, whatever) is unlocked, you open it and holler inside to identify yourself. If it's locked, you knock. These past few visits, he has either come to the door armed or made some casual off-color comment ("Dude, you almost got tomahawked.."). I try to shrug it off, as it's probably a little disconcerting to be working alone in the house all day and have your silent reverie blown away by a knock or a holler, but I'm wondering how safe it would be to lend him something.

To top that off, though this is just bad form, he has no set itinerary for either buying his own darn gun or for getting the wifey trained in safety and use.

And then as a final consideration, there are contractors in and out all day, but his big-screen TV's sitting there in the living room and that'd be the first to go.. by contrast there's little furniture in there yet, and it really wouldn't take long to toss the whole place.


So it's not that I'm being a lousy friend, right?
 
You lent him a gun? That makes you a terrific friend. I wouldn't even lend my son a gun. Well, maybe my son. But that's it.
 
As the custom is among my people, if the door (to the house, apt, whatever) is unlocked, you open it and holler inside to identify yourself. If it's locked, you knock.
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Is that the custom among HIS people? It sure ain't the custom among MY people ... MY people knock whether the door is locked or not (in fact my people don't try the handle to see if the door is locked, we just assume it is). Another custom among my people is to lock the damn door :p

If your friend is going to react to someone coming through the front door by arming themselves (gun ... tomahawk ... whatever) then maybe he needs to start locking the door.
 
pax, my dad has a friend who will pull the same stunt. i told dad to tell his buddie that if he EVER pulled it on me i would (insert non high road action here) !
a serious talk about treating weapons like a joke, even with a gun budddies, is in order. your home defence weapon is a weapon, not a toy.
if he wants a gun, tell him to buy his own. you are not responcible for arming your friends. takeing a guy out to the range and letting them shoot your guns is one thing, but letting them take it home and keep for an undetermined length of time. no way.
the only cericumstance in which i would allow someone to borrow my gun, would be someone i was close with who had a definate threat upon there life, and only after I had personally overseen their training and during that time i would be helping them get their own gun.
 
he has no set itinerary for either buying his own darn gun - Pax Jordana
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I'm wondering why this is. Maybe something in his background would prevent him from legally owning a firearm, or maybe he's taking advantage of your generosity?

No, I don't think you're being a lousy friend, I think you're being a responsible friend.

Good luck with this one!

Take care,
DFW1911
 
As the custom is among my people, if the door (to the house, apt, whatever) is unlocked, you open it and holler inside to identify yourself. If it's locked, you knock.
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How did your people survive this long?

Maybe you need to adopt a policy of calling ahead on the phone, then knocking when you arrive. Someone fiddling with the door knob is bound to raise rifle barrels.

That said, I'd advise against loaner guns esp. if you have draconian local laws on the matter.
 
I have only one friend in this world I would loan a gun and it's because he has at least as many as I do. In the emergency situation that he would need one I would give him my best. This, however, is with the knowledge that he and I both have very strict gun etiquette.
 
Yes, I am sure there is more to this story than we know or you know. Loaning guns when something doesn't quite seem right is bad juju.
 
Zund...your people sound like my people. My grown sons knock on my front door...even when I know they are coming over.

We,(wife and I), keep all doors locked all the time. If I'm working in the yard, the doors are locked. If I'm in the basement reloading, everything is locked.

I don't trust people any more.:(

Mark.
 
The subject of loaning a gun has been discussed here before. I would be particularly worried about loaning one for defensive purposes unless it was someone I was very close to, and was very comfortable with their ability to handle it safely and responsibly. Also be willing to accept responsibility for whatever they do with it, because you will be held to account if they do something stupid. At this point, only immediate family meets that criteria for me. I would suggest you encourage him to obtain his own.
 
IMO, with gun ownership comes serious heavy responsibility. By lending him one of your weapons, you spread your responsibility to cover your friend and, IMO, will overextend yourself. You will be giving your property to a person who, although generally would not misuse it, you cannot guarantee will possibly misuse it even though the possibility is incredibly remote. There are legal issues that you have to think about. As you noted, he is a bit jittery when surprised, even in his own home. Plus, it's also noted that a permit is required. If by a very tiny chance he shoots someone who he did not meant to shoot, where would that leave you? He has no permit, you lent him the gun.

If he was in dire need for one, (e.g., verbally threatened by someone, bad neighborhood, etc.) possibly. Otherwise, IMO, no go. He's big enough to get his own and be responsible for himself. Take him to the gun shop.
 
I have had many guns loaned to me and I've loaned a few out. However this is always between friends that I am very comfortable with concerning firearms.
I've had guys from work come to me saying "Hey I just got an XYZ you wanna try it?" I might take it home during my lunch or sometimes overnight to run a few mags through it. Sometimes it has been to let my wife try em out. Kinda like renting them at a range but free. This has always works for me/us but I may simply have my head in the ........ sand.

Like I said, this has only happened with people I have shot with and know very very well.
 
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When I was growing up we had one family friend who would do that. He would be invited over for the evening and he'd just show up and open the door. Sometimes he'd just walk in and sit down... it was very odd and not warmly received. Fortunately for him we were not violently paranoid and the worst thing that ever came of it was that he wasn't invited over as often plus maybe some choice words. Still, from the perspective of someone who does not share those customs: knock, wait out side, and if nobody answers the door assume they aren't there/are busy/don't want to talk to you and leave. It's safer! :)

It's nice that you'd consider loaning to friends but it would really suck to be shot with your own gun.

My rule is that I don't loan anything (anything... cars, guns, boxes of matches) I wouldn't be willing to give to the person. So I'd ask myself... "would I give this guy my make/model gun?" If the answer was yes, I'd loan or just give it (depending on circumstances and following all the laws in either case) without qualms. So far the only people I've said "yes" to that question about were family.
 
Flaky Friends

In the thread mentioned above, I [post=3057309]have a post[/post], which I'll quote in toto here.
I learned, like many of you, that lending out tools is a recipe for . . . having to buy new tools.

Something I learned over a period of years:
If someone does not own tools of his own, yet wants to borrow mine, whatever forces in his life that keep him from owning his own will tend to work against his caring for mine.

If (for whatever reason) he "can't have" tools, and I lend him mine, his "can't have" will be applied to my hardware, and I'll get it back damaged or broken, if at all.​

That said, I've found that I can lend tools to someone who has tools of his own, but whose tools are not handy, and generally there won't be a problem.

A guy who has his own, cares for them well, and has demonstrated good "karma" with the tool du jour, is welcome to use mine.

You may take it as read that this will be someone I know well and in whom I have complete confidence.

Outside of that, ain't be no way dat be happnin' wit mah tools. Y'all getcher own.
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Allow me to expand a little on this.
"whatever forces in his life that keep him from owning his own"​
It doesn't matter what those are. I doesn't matter whether he's just grossly irresponsible, has no understanding of the tool in question, never has enough money, or has always had access to someone else's tools. Fact is, if it mattered to him and he was in command of his life, he'd have his own tools.

I can't count the number of excuses I've heard from guys who didn't have their own screwdriver/saw/hammer/chisel or whatever -- up to and including cars -- and who, on borrowing mine, managed to exert whatever "forces in his life" on my stuff. I got saws back bent or missing teeth, hammers back with chipped faces or claws, screwdrivers with a corner missing, and so on.

When you ask what happened, you get everything from "I didn't do that" to "well it's a cheap [item]; you should buy better stuff" and my personal favorite, "oh, that happened when I loaned it to Joe."

In the end, I just quit lending tools. With guys whose tools were well-kept and were simply not available, I have no problem. You have to understand, though, that I never take their word for "my tools are well-kept;" if I'm lending them mine, it's because I've actually seen theirs.

And a gun? Specifically? No. If he's "never gotten around to it" or if there's even a hint of irresponsibility, then no gun. I'm not making any kind of contribution to someone else's "state of stoopid."

There are people to whom I would have no problem lending a gun. The guy who taught me to shoot my pistol better. My brother the PI. My dad. My son -- maybe -- but it would be contingent on seeing him use it (he's okay with his own, but he's not "generally proficient"). My mechanic (who carries).

There are people I like a great deal but who would get turned down either because they exhibit "bad karma" with stuff, have a spouse who gets weird about guns, or who have intimated in some way that they don't trust themselves with a gun.

In general, I'd better know you pretty well, I'd better like the way you care for your stuff, and I'd better be confident that you don't have a screw loose.

Sneak up on me in my own house "for laughs?" Sorry. No gunz fer yoo. Tanks for playing.

So, no, you're not a "lousy friend."

Your friend needs to aggregate his feces.
 
To follow up on ArfinGreebly's point:

I wouldn't loan a gun to a friend who didn't own one, as I don't know how he'd handle it. The tool analogy is right on the money.

I wouldn't hesitate to loan a gun to some of my friends who do have their own, and have already done so. In those cases, it's not "dude, I need a gun," but rather "I need to borrow a specific gun I don't already have." I've loaned out .22's to friends who don't have them--though they join me at the range with their .45's and their .243's--because they have a co-worker who wants to try shooting for the first time, or loan a shotgun for a trip to the skeet field, or what have you.

To go back to the tool analogy, I wouldn't loan stuff to a neighbor who has nothing (or has a bunch of beaten-up tools), but if a friend with a well-stocked and cared-for toolbox needed something unique, like my Dzus driver or safety-wire pliers, I wouldn't have any problem lending it to him.
 
aggregate his feces.
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Hilarious.

For clarity's sake, I have not yet lent him a gun.

Just two quick points I wanted to add. He and I are both young and hip, so if the door's unlocked and I open it and holler, it means both of us have foreknowledge of my impending arrival, by call or text message, and the last response passed between was "I'll be ____, the door's open."

Two, the permit bit was regarding a CCW, not some manner of ownership permit. He's perfectly legal for a housegun. I just included that because I think it explains the tone of the relationship. We're great friends on all other counts, but he'll borrow my gun before buying his own like he's sat on his hands getting a permit because he knows I carry.

Good discussion, thanks all. If anyone else has anything to contribute it's still welcome.
 
I had a coworker who was always telling me about going hunting with his friend Steve. "Steve and I went dove hunting Friday." or Steve and I shot the hell out of the ducks this weekend."

It seems he always let Steve use one of his shotguns. Oh, and he always supplied the shells.

One day U.S. Marshals stopped into work and carted my coworker off to who knows where.

It seems Steve "borrowed" my coworker's shotgun and a box of shells the day before. He then went home and put a large hole in his wife's head, then jumped into his car, and drove it into a tree at 90 m.p.h. with no seatbelt.

Oh, did I mention that Steve had three previous violent felony convictions? Two domestic abuses, and one assault on a police officer?

My coworker never did any time, but I'm sure there were some lengthy conversations with people he did not want to be having lengthy conversations with.

How would you like to know that the gun you kindly let your "friend" borrow was used to send lead through a head?
 
the only time my friends borrow my guns is at the range under my supervision after they have endured my 10 minute safety lecture and pop quiz. And I always have another gun on me if things get REALLL crazy.
 
Legally, no way I'd loan a gun to someone if I'm not around. I feel responsible for the firearm and how it's used.
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Agreed.The wife's boss once asked her, to ask me, if he could borrow my .22 revolver to do some plinking on his land.Even though it is a $20 RG .22lr revolver, than only fires about 30% of the rounds 1st try, my answer was an emphatic HECK NO!No one but the wife gets to EVER touch one of my guns without asking first, and me being there the whole time it's in thier possession.I'm not paranoid, and I'm generally a nice, laid back, giving guy, but theres just WAY to much risk involved in loaning a gun.
 
There are only 3 people on the planet that I would feel comfortable loaning a gun to...or borrowning a gun from...and I've known them for over 40 years.

The young lad's reaction..."Dude! You almost got tommahawked!" suggests that he may have a little Mall Ninja in him. I wouldn't loan him a gun on a bet.

That said...

That anyone would open a closed door before knocking when the occupant isn't expecting him/her is bad form, and can trigger a "Repel Boarders" response in some areas. If that's your habit, and you know that you could have a potential Mall Ninja on the other side of the door, you may be setting the stage for a tragedy.

Even if you have a clear-headed individual in the dwelling, you can find yourself smack in the middle of a bad situation.

When I first moved into this area...rural/agricultural...the guy who came to install the satellite dish presumed that the half-dozen dogs raising sand in the fenced area accounted for all of'em. When he opened the front door to announce his arrival, he was greeted by two large and highly agitated male Collies on full alert. He got lucky. I was in the upstairs part of the house and was able to call them off before they got to him. When the dogs that happen to be inside are pre-alerted by the ones outside...they don't bark until a knock comes. When the guy opened the door without knocking...they lunged for the door. He was as white as a ghost. He got the picture without me saying a word.

Knock. The life that you save may be your own.
 
It seems to me that loaning another person regardless of their relationship to you a firearm has a lot of ramifications, almost all of which are not good. If your friend can't afford a weapon maybe he should reexamine his priorities for disposable income. I doubt if I would loan one of my firearms to a family member let alone anyone else.
 
If his and his wife's safety isn't important enough for your friend to go out and buy his own gun and get the training needed to understand how and when to use it, then he just doesn't need one.

So no, I wouldn't loan him one of yours.


J.C.
 
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