A few points to those talking to their anti friends.. just my $.02

[Wanderling]

Based on personal experience... as I was moderately anti myself until a few years ago.

• Realize that most are well meaning but have no knowledge of guns. They don't understand that an AK-47 "assault rifle" as legally sold in the US (in semi-auto configuration) is actually as or even less deadly than a semi auto hunting rifle with a scope. They don't understand that a pump action shotgun is more deadly at close range than any "assault weapon". They don't understand why people need to "stockpile" guns or ammo. Don't call them names - explain it to them. Politely and without a condescending or arrogant stance. Just today, a female friend of ours said something along the lines of "why would a normal person want to buy thousands of rounds". I politely and patiently told her about how many rounds I shoot per session (and I am a very infrequent recreational shooter), how many rounds a typical recreational shooter would go through, the difference in price and packaging sizes between stores and internet, spikes in pricing in the recent years, and I think at the end of the conversation she understood that it's perfectly normal for someone to buy a couple thousand rounds if they find a great deal.

• Explain that if someone wants to kill a lot of people, there are many ways to do it without use of weapons or explosives - arson, poison, running a car into crowd, etc.

• Talk about Washington DC total gun ban and crime statistics. Mexico and Russia (gun ban, very high crime levels). How many states have adopted CCW laws in the last 10-12 years, and how there was a decrease in gun violence.

• And finally, keep politics out of 2A discussions ! I am an independent with many liberal and many conservative views, and I am offended whenever someone starts bitching about "liberals". I have many liberal leaning pro-gun friends, and I met quite a few Republican supporters who are blindly supporting the government as long as it's Republican, and whose views would make Hitler proud. And vs versus, of course. Someone's views on social or religious issues don't dictate their views on 2A.

 

[john wall]

As a long time Firearms and Unarmed Defensive Trainer, and Sport Shooting Coach, I do not push any agenda. I think folks should be able to protect themselves and their loved ones.

A person unwilling to protect their loved ones rates less than zero with me, and I don't want to know them.

"A PACIFIST is someone who won't raise their hands to defend themselves...
A COWARD is someone who won't raise their hands to defend someone else."

Unless one is willing to make a long time and major commitment to train in unarmed self defense, a firearm is often the only way one can swing the odds in their favor in case of an attack.

If you do not want to own firearms or be associated with them, that is fine.

If you would expect me to put myself in harm's way to protect or defend you because you are unwilling to learn to defend yourself, you are going to have a bad day.

If you are faced with a disparity in numbers, size, age, or sex, then I may very likely defend you to the death.

Oddly enough, I have exactly ONE person I call a friend who does not own firearms.

Go figure it.

 

[spotch]

• And finally, keep politics out of 2A discussions ! I am an independent with many liberal and many conservative views, and I am offended whenever someone starts bitching about "liberals". I have many liberal leaning pro-gun friends, and I met quite a few Republican supporters who are blindly supporting the government as long as it's Republican, and whose views would make Hitler proud. And vs versus, of course. Someone's views on social or religious issues don't dictate their views on 2A.

This is a good one. And just be "accepting" in general, and make it clear that the "gun ownership" umbrella is actually pretty large. A lot of people who are for gun restrictions are like that at least partly out of ignorance. Education and talking stuff out is the key here, not bumper sticker slogans and a lot of bluster and combativeness. I mean unless you just want to fight with them lol.

 

[tomrkba]

This: http://www.smallestminority.blogspot.com/2012/07/so-gun-control-will-make-us-safer.html

Choice quotes:

"In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime."

"Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent."

UK:

"The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

"The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent."

 

[WNTFW]

Wanderling,
It seems anti-gun people convert to being pro-gun people more than pro-gun people become anti-gun. Is this something you have noticed?
Do you have any reasons for the change in your moderately anti view that you would be able to share?

 

[barnbwt]

Good post Wanderling, I like to see even-headedness prevail in these high-strung debates. I do get a kick that people still think 5000 is a big number...

Now stockpiling 14,000,000,000,000 rounds; that's scary!

Do you have any reasons for the change in your moderately anti view that you would be able to share?

I grew up in the NW, largely in absence of guns (except 22 rifles in Scouts), so most of my feelings (I won't call them "views") were founded in ignorance. When you consider that most folks don't train for self-defense (or even consider it) it's logical that they would feel pistols can only be used for crimes. If you ignore the myriad self-defense uses, they pretty much can only be used for crimes (or plinking, I guess). But that's like saying pencils are only good for erasing, when you've never learned to write. Education is the key.

Many people (myself included ) are downright uncomfortable around guns, on a visceral level, before they become acclimated to them. I was very conscious of how weird I felt buying my first rifle (Rem 700 SPS ), and later my first pistol (S&W TRR8). I liken it to the feeling of driving for the first time; awe at the super-human power at your fingertips. Not that we can't drive responsibly as well, though...

TCB

 

[Lex Luthier]

So many people rely on simple emotion to get through life, and though lacking the specific technical information necessary to be confident, STILL attempt to opine on serious issues, expecting credibility.

When this debate comes up, as it has recently, my first question is "What is your direct experience with ______ ? If the only "assault weapons" they have ever seen were in a movie or a video game, I attempt to explain the difference between automatic and semiautomatic. If they are unaware of our Second Amendment, ditto.

In many ways, we are responsible to helping define and delineate the often confusing data streams that confound the uninformed. Most reasonable and intelligent people when approached that way, will be open to an education. When they balk and play the typical lib card, I just let the opportunity pass. At least then you know who to keep an eye on.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I think the Washington D.C., Mexico, Russia (and other strict environments) control arguments relative to violence is basically a non-starter with an intelligent Anti. They will invariably take the debate right back to and in the laps of near/neighboring or international environments where firearms are available as the source of the tools of violence.

An example would be the common blame of Virginia's relatively liberal gun laws as significantly contributing to the handgun violence in D.C.

Or as seen with F&F - the plan to exploit Arizona's firearms laws in an attempt to use Mexico violence as a pry-bar to go back after the very Arizona laws which were manipulated to supply the guns... and round & round it goes.

The point they make once the door is opened is: if it weren't so easy to get guns in Virginia or Arizona, those crimes involving firearms in D.C and Mexico would not have happened.

I KNOW there are huge holes in the argument, I'm just sayin' that I never go there in a debate anymore as it hands a "sound-bite" victory to the antis that really sticks in the minds of any listening "mush-mind" unwilling to follow the logic through on their own.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

...

An example would be the common blame of Virginia's relatively liberal gun laws as significantly contributing to the handgun violence in D.C.

...

The point they make once the door is opened is: if it weren't so easy to get guns in Virginia or Arizona, those crimes involving firearms in D.C and Mexico would not have happened.

Easy response: if guns are the cause of this violence, why doesn't Virginia have the same problem as DC?

 

[wacki]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96409853
http://www.amazon.com/The-Samurai-Mountie-Cowboy-Democracies/dp/0879757566

 

[jrdolall]

Consider a person that was born and raised in Chicago or NYC. They have never been hunting, never been fishing, and never really spent any time in the outdoors. To them the big city and high-rise apartments IS reality. Why should they be anything other than anti-gun? The only time they see or hear about guns is when a gun is used to commit a crime so they are naturally going to have some resistance to the idea that there are a large number of people who own guns responsibly.

This does not make them bad people, just mis-informed. Don't assume that everyone you meet is knowledgeable about the 2A or any other part of the Constitution. Discussion of the Bill of Rights is not a top priority in urban schools so where do we expect these people to get their info? They get it from MSNBC or by watching a Batman movie. I live in rural Alabama and it is amazing how few people really understand gun rights and the Constitution.

Statistics will NOT WORK with a true anti. They will always have a valid (in their mind)retort about DC, Chicago, Great Britain and Australia violent crime stats. No anti will ever convince me that gun rights should be abolished so why should I expect to convince them to see it my way? The key is in how we represent our beliefs to those people who are on the fence or maybe leaning towards being anti based on current events.

I am always willing to engage in debate with either side. I fly a lot and am perfectly comfortable discussing my gun views with my fellow passengers. I know I have swayed some of them to my views and have given some others a little bit of an education about guns. Some are set in their thoughts and my thoughts did not sway them one bit.

I once appalled an elderly couple when I showed them pictures of my 11 year old firing an AR-15. You would have thought I showed them a picture of my daughter naked! I spent over an hour discussing different guns with them and how much enjoyment my family gets from spending an afternoon shooting and then fishing. They were originally from NJ and had retired to Palm Springs so gun ownership was something they considered a bad thing. I still don't know if I changed their minds.

 

[Manco]

It seems anti-gun people convert to being pro-gun people more than pro-gun people become anti-gun.

Perhaps my view is biased, but I daresay that knowledge is the key difference. Statistically speaking, those who gain more knowledge about the subject tend to become more pro-gun or at least less anti-gun. Of course, this depends on what type of knowledge is involved, but I think that factual truth and a balanced consideration of all points of view favor the pro-gun side overall. This is one reason the gun culture is still strong despite the ease with which the anti-gun faction manipulates people's emotions (it's easy to loathe things that are designed to kill people--many people do this automatically).

Truth is always more elusive to find and accept than knee-jerk reactions to sensationalized depictions of extreme violence involving guns, but nevertheless it has a tendency to stubbornly assert itself once it has seeped in, ultimately outlasting people's fleeting emotions.

 

[Wanderling]

Wanderling,
It seems anti-gun people convert to being pro-gun people more than pro-gun people become anti-gun. Is this something you have noticed?
Do you have any reasons for the change in your moderately anti view that you would be able to share ?

1) I was never afraid of guns.

2) I met many gun owners who were reasonable, responsible, polite and level headed people and had large collections of firearms. I started to realize that not everyone buying what to me seemed like "large quantities" of weapons was "stockpiling".

3) Probably the biggest reason I changed my attitude to gun control was a few years ago; back around 2001 or so MI changed to "shall issue" and there was no increase in gun violence, no Wild West style bar fights, and the one local "postal" shooting was done with a shotgun. So, not only stricter gun control did nothing to prevent gun crimes committed by criminals (I realized that long time ago), relaxing it did not cause an increase in gun violence among regular citizens. As a professional, I can interpret the available data and draw my conclusions, and change my initial opinion if I see that it was incorrect. (Although I still believe that not every weapon belongs in hands of private citizens).

 

[WNTFW]

Wanderling,
Thanks for answering. I find it easy to have discussions with people even if I don't agree with their views. I treat people with respect. That can go a long way. I can see that you probably do the same.
I can't recall meeting any Anti's firsthand. I know some NGP's, just no Anti's. I think anti-gun activist try to make every one that is indifferent count as another person on their side of the argument.

I also think some things are not meant for everyone. The best thing we can do is be proactive on a personal level to insure our 2A rights.

 

[blarby]

There are many gun owning Liberals and they love their guns.

yep.......

 

[Deanimator]

Unless one is willing to make a long time and major commitment to train in unarmed self defense, a firearm is often the only way one can swing the odds in their favor in case of an attack.

Even if somebody IS willing to make that commitment, that doesn't mean that they're going to prevail against a younger, larger, stronger, faster opponent.

The 210lb., 20 year old rapist won't ALWAYS prevail over the 60 year old, 110lb. woman, but that's the way to bet.

There are more than a few imbeciles who will tell you that women don't need guns because they can defend themselves with the martial arts. I always reply to them, "Xena, Warrior Princess" wasn't a documentary.

I know that my own mother has no more likelihood of defending herself from a 200lb. 21 year old using the martial arts than she has of knocking a MiG29 out of the air with a rolled up newspaper.

Too bad she lives in Illinois and has a legal DUTY to be robbed, raped or murdered by whoever wants to...