A gun might have saved her - 911 didn't...

[Preacherman]

From the Arizona Republic (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0305stab05.html):

Woman is stabbed to death on 911 call
Pat Biggs
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 5, 2003 12:00 AM

MESA - While asking for help from a 911 emergency operator, a woman was fatally stabbed by her live-in boyfriend, according to police.

Dorothy M. Lee, 43, and Alfred Lewis, 45, were arguing Monday morning in their home in the 1100 block of East Jarvis Avenue when Lee ran across the street to call 911 on the neighbor's portable phone.

Lewis followed her and the couple got into a physical dispute, according to Detective Tim Gaffney, a Mesa police spokesman.

"While she was on the phone with 911, she was stabbed. The male subject then retreated to his residence. He had self-inflicted stab wounds," Gaffney said. Lee was pronounced dead at a hospital.

Lewis was hospitalized in stable condition.

Lewis will be booked on suspicion of first-degree murder upon his release, Gaffney said.

 

[DeltaElite]

Picking a better boyfriend definitely would have saved her.

 

[Greg L]

So would knowing which of your neighbors had a gun.

Greg

 

[cheygriz]

A kind word and a gun will accomplish much more than a kind word alone.

 

[Drjones]

So would knowing which of your neighbors had a gun.

Well, not really.

How is that any different than relying on the police for your protection?

As much as I might dream of saving someone with my sidearm, it doesn't mean that I really want to unless I'm thrust into the situation.

A phone call from a neighbor doesn't count as "thrust into" the situation.

I'm not a cop, nor do I play one on TV.

I'm not about to risk my hide (legally and otherwise) to help out someone who was too stupid to buy their own life-saver.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Theres's a lot she could—and should—have done differently.

Now the tax payers of the state of Arizona will have to pick up the tab for feeding, clothing, housing, and providing medical care to the killer for years to come.

It costs more to send someone to prison for a year than it would to send a deserving young person to virtually any college in the nation.

 

[Powderman]

OK, let's cut to the chase here.

Drjones:

Here's the situation:

The young woman mentioned in the article above is at your door. You are standing there. About 50 yards behind her, an unknown male is approaching. You can see the knife in his hand plainly.

She is at your door, pleading for help. There is no mistake--AT ALL--that the man coming toward your door is the one she is referring to.

You have a Remington 870 handy, loaded with 5 rounds; 00buck/slug/buck/slug/slug, with a sidesaddle holding 6 rounds of 00buck and 3-inch slugs, mixed. It is slightly modified; it sports a Hogue Comp-Stock, is Vang-Comped, and has ghost ring sights.

You have three choices:

a. Close the door quickly, and call 911.

b. Attempt to talk to the woman, and as the man approaches, attempt to reason with him as to the illegality of his actions.

c. Pick up your Remington. Step outside of your door, placing yourself between the woman and the advancing man. When the man crosses an estimated 40 yard distance, rack the action hard, chambering one round of 2 3/4 Federal 00 buckshot. Stand ready.

What, sir, is your choice? A straight answer, please.

 

[Blackhawk]

Escape FIRST, then call if you don't have a means to defend yourself.

Another thing that's bad about this 911 mindset is that calling 911 interferes with doing important and effective things, like running, getting real help, etc.

 

[Drjones]

Powderman:

You misunderstood me and the quote I quoted.

What greg implied is that those who, for whatever reason, do not own a gun, can and should rely on those of us who do.

That's not the way it works.

In the situation you outlined above, obviously I would allow the girl in my house and would protect her until help arrived.

But someone pounding on your door begging for help is a far cry, IMO, from your neighbors using you as their personal cop.

 

[Blackhawk]

You have three choices:

a. Close the door quickly, and call 911.

b. Attempt to talk to the woman, and as the man approaches, attempt to reason with him as to the illegality of his actions.

c. Pick up your Remington. Step outside of your door, placing yourself between the woman and the advancing man. When the man crosses an estimated 40 yard distance, rack the action hard, chambering one round of 2 3/4 Federal 00 buckshot. Stand ready.

I have a 4th choice: pull her in and lock the door.

He's not going to get through my steel door with his body or knife. Then I'm going to call 911 with gun in hand while she sits quietly.

If he comes in through a crashed window, etc., it will be a good shoot....

 

[Drjones]

Yeah, what Blackhawk said...

 

[sm]

Blackhawk -
Excellent points!

The sad thing is the public has been suckered into false security and it is not until something like this occurs that people EVEN consider alternatives to 911. Then its too late for the victim, the people reading go back to their lull "it won't happen to me" mindset.

A smaller % will learn from others misfortune and take personal responsibility.

Seems the older I get the better I appreciate my upbringing, We didn't have 911...we had firearms, and used our heads.

I've had neighbors knock on doors when Violence erupted, BF , husband, rowdy kid. They did not know me, much less me and firearms...just a primal instict to run, scream and try to wake up someone. At least they stayed off the phone and woke up th e apt complex.

 

[Coronach]

What Blackhawk said.

And color me skeptical, but I'm keeping one eye on the doors/windows and one eye on her until the uniforms get on scene.

Mike

 

[Blackhawk]

And color me skeptical, but I'm keeping one eye on the doors/windows and one eye on her until the uniforms get on scene.

Absolutely! That's what I meant by "she sits quietly," but you said it much better!

 

[Greg L]

Actually Dr, it was just a quick follow up to DE's comment.

It was just a general comment on "profiling" your neighbors a bit. In the same situation would you rather run to the neighbor who drives a Volvo and tells her wild kids that she "will be disappointed in them if they don't behave" (I actually saw this a little while ago while shopping. The kid was 4-5 and knocking over displays in the store and running away anytime she got close), or to the guy who drives a pickup and who's children say "Sir" to everyone (at least those who are male ) and are respectful towards others.

You should be able to tell alot from people and their general attitudes without having to get into a discussion about guns.

Greg

(Oh, and I would certainly keep an eye on her in case she gets upset with me for threatening her boyfriend with my shotgun)

 

[Peter Gun]

Good point at the end, Greg. As I'm sure our LEO members can attest to, domestic violence victims often behave even more irrationally than the perps. Powdermans scenario of stepping between the two combatants is a BIG mistake IMO. Removing one party from the conflict is the best answer, a la Blackhawks suggestion. If you cant get one away from the other, I think I would try warning shots (only w/ a shotgun) to scare BOTH into submission. If that doesnt work.... well I guess you'll have to decide if you will stay out of it or who you shoot first.

 

[twoblink]

I had a friend that actually had the same situation happen to him. Heard a scream down the hall, saw his neighbor run out, into his door...

He grabbed his shotgun, and she hid under the couch. He didn't know what to expect, but the drunk boyfriend was probably the "problem".

The drunk boyfriend (on que) came pounding on the door... and kicked the front door open.

My friend (has a bottom eject shotgun, like me!!) he racked two.... ejected one at the guy's face, and said "Then next one is coming out the barrel!"

BTW... did you know a 12 gauge is one of the most effective items to sober someone up??

But yeah, try picking a better bf, and learning to defend yourself.

As my friends say "When in trouble, dial 1911, when the problem is resolved, then dial 911"

 

[Powderman]

Peter, warning shots are a BIG no-no. Do not discharge your weapon, unless it is at a target.

I should clarify my earlier post. You SHOULD step in front of the victim--but keep them in sight by stepping off to the side as soon as possible. The reason for this is to keep them from rising suddenly in front of your muzzle.

If you have time, however, I agree with an earlier poster--yank them inside, lock the door, arm yourself, THEN call 911. That does make more sense.

However, there is one consideration that must be taken into effect.

Frequently, a person under threat of imminent violent death loses muscular control and coherence. It is entirely possible that they will NOT respond to anything you do, other than to lay there in a crying, pleading mess. It's not that they DON'T want to move--they have been scared into immobility.

That is why you must be prepared to take the fight outside. And, it is true--nothing will make a perp think twice like the sound of a 12 Ga. slide being pumped.

 

[Sir Galahad]

From the Devil's Advocate General's Office

The are a few problems wih getting involved with a domestic violence situation.

First, the woman might just side with the abuser if you shoot him. Might try to disarm you (so he can pick up and use the weapon on you later.) If you shoot the guy, she might testify you shot the guy for no good reason and he really wasn't hurtng her, she was just having PMS.

Second, you'll find in most cases of a woman being killed by a spouse or lover, there is a history of abuse, complete with repeated visits from the police. And plenty of refusals to press charges. Or taking him right back when he gets out of jail. Even if she has the magic restaining order. That is how the dynamic works. Yes, it's sick, but that's how some people live their lives and die because of it. So, by coming to you, she might just be dragging you onto the chess board for a game you won't win. Remember, the police have not been able to get this woman to leave this POS. Neither have the counselors the police summoned for her. I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, but that's what happens in lots of cases.


Know that in a domestic violence situation:
1.) The "victim" can suddenly turn on you, particularly if she thinks you're a hair away from turning Rock-em-Sock-em Romeo into corpse beetle chow. You might not be able to get control of your weapon if she grabs it and Romeo grabs it also.

2.) She might testify against you in court if you do shoot the guy.

3.) Batterers are cowards, but vindictive and sneaky ones. If you don't shoot the guy but you confront him, he'll never forget it. And you'll be watching your back for years. And she'll be more than happy to encourage that take the heat off her.


The choice is yours, of course. But before you decide to intervene in such a situation, read a few psychology books on the dynamic of domestic violence.

 

[Blackhawk]

Well and good, Sir Galahad. But all you KNOW is that some woman's banging on your door screaming that somebody's trying to kill her, which you visually verify.

You don't have a pause button on the situation allowing you to make calls, read books, counsel with social workers, etc.

You've got a second or two to decide and act. And you will live with that decision for the rest of your life.

Not prepared to decide? That's why we're talkin' about it.

 

[DeltaElite]

Easy one.
Move her inside to safety, lock the door and call 911.
If her boyfriend forces entry, shoot him until the threat is stopped.
Order a pizza for yourself and the cops. Food always eases uncomfortable social situations, such as homicides.

 

[Sir Galahad]

I understand that. I'm just playing devil's advocate. In some cases, though, neighbors are familiar with patterns of abuse in houses where domestic violence occurs. Like weekly visits to that house by the police. Nightly shreiks and screams. Nightly squeeling tires and glass breaking. In such cases, one might wish to temper a response appropriately. As far as reading books, you should know about the sorts of people you might encounter in which you may find yourself perhaps using deadly force. For those reasons, it's also a good idea to read up on how people act and their behavior under the influence of specific drugs. What you don't know can kill you.

 

[DeltaElite]

You are correct Sir Gallahad.
Some people are victims, some are volunteers.

 

[Blackhawk]

We're still stuck with the same problems, Sir Galahad. Even if you KNOW that she's an enabler and he's a beater, you have a murder about to happen right at your front door.

Life happens, and like it or not, you've become involved in the situation simply by living there.

The only action I could live with is pulling her inside, locking the door, 911, requiring her to be quiet, considering her to be a potentially hostile invader, and waiting for the next shoe to drop.

 

[sm]

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