A John Farnam comment on internal gun locks

[Kestrel]

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25 Feb 04

Internal gun locks, from a friend and instructor:

"I'm currently consulting in a case in which an individual, with no suicidal tendencies, put a pistol to his own head, placed his own thumb on the trigge r, and then dared his friend to pull the trigger by placing his (the friend's) index finger over his (the decedent's) thumb. A fatal shot to the head resulted.

The decedent regularly 'played' with guns in this and similar ways. I believe the deceased did not intend to kill himself, but thought he had the pistol's 'key lock' engaged, and was just trying to see whether his (stupid) friend would take the dare. We'll never know for sure, of course, but the difficulty of knowing whether the key lock is engaged or disengaged is an issue with this particular pisto l."

Comment: This is the "dark side" of key-operated, internal gun locks that come on many pistols these days. "What could be the harm?" said media pundi ts, about internal gun locks. Gun manufacturers foolishly and blindly rushed th em into production. From the foregoing, we see the "harm." When guns are "saf e" in the mind of the handler, an accident is inevitable. "Safe" guns are routinely handled carelessly, or even recklessly as in the foregoing example . In my opinion, "dangerous" guns are the safest of all, because, knowing they ar e dangerous, most people handle them correctly.

Naive politicians and gun manufacturers foolishly convinced themselves that "postponing" gun accidents is equivalent to "preventing" them. Any device t hat countenances careless gun handling and storage will invariably spawn gun accidents and is thus no friend of mine. Correct gun handling and storage i s the only sure way to prevent accidents. Safety gimmicks, like internal locks, a re little more than self-deception, in crystalline form.

/John
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[Standing Wolf]

No internal locks on guns in my house. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not next year. Not ever.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Absolutely. Not ever.

 

[pax]

fjolnirsson, Standing Wolf ~

That's what I said about flow-restricted showerheads.

Right up until there weren't any other kind of showerheads in the stores. :banghead:

pax

Political freedom cannot exist without economic freedom; a free mind and a free market are corollaries. -- Ayn Rand

 

[Art Eatman]

Ah, but, pax: Disassemble. Drill more holes or enlarge existing holes. Reassemble and install.

Anything which can be taken apart and reassembled can be modified to suit the proclivities of the owner. Cars, guns, showerheads, whatever...

, Art

 

[Kestrel]

Art's right, pax. Unrestrict those showerheads...

Now, if anyone has a fix for all those Al Gore low-volume toilets, I'd like to hear it...

Steve

 

[Jim K]

Opinions about internal locks aside, that kind of thinking also applied to both manual safeties and magazine safeties as well as to loading the gun. For some reason, some people just like to play dangerous games. (I bet it ain't loaded - BANG!)

I don't know whether the Russians really invented "Russian roulette", but every year a few Americans die playing it. One guy did it with an automatic pistol. Yep. He put one round in the chamber and pulled the trigger, just like the books said.

Jim

 

[pax]

Of course, Art. Did that.

My mother in law was appalled to discover that we had working showerheads at our house. I guess she couldn't figure out what to do with all that water.

But it still pains me that I paid money for gadgets I swore I would never buy...

Wouldn't it have been nicer to just buy showerheads that worked in the first place?

%$^%# mumblety-blank meddlers ...

pax

I don't mind occasionally having to reinvent a wheel; I don't even mind using someone's reinvented wheel occasionally. But it helps a lot if it is symmetric, contains no fewer than ten sides, and has the axle centered. I do tire of trapezoidal wheels with offset axles. -- Joseph Newcomer

P.S. And yes, that's what I think about internal gun locks, too...

 

[Brass Balls]

Now, if anyone has a fix for all those Al Gore low-volume toilets, I'd like to hear it...

Take a small fishing bobber about as big around as a nickel and attach it to the flapper chain just above the flapper. You may need to experiment with just how far over the flapper to make the attachement for best results. This will hold the flapper open longer allowing more water per flush.


As far as lockable guns, I now own a couple of them and I have keys for them too... somewhere.

 

[StuporDave]

Now, if anyone has a fix for all those Al Gore low-volume toilets, I'd like to hear it...

Not a fix, but I heard about an architectural salvage company that's sells old "standard-capacity" toilets as fast as they can get them.

 

[V-fib]

Two of my revolvers came with the internal locks and keys. I’ve never used the locks and never plan on using the locks.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

Without the type of gun listed it means nothing to me.

Internal lock < Trigger or Cable Lock < Gun Safe

If used an internal lock is better than nothing.

 

[caz223]

It's to the point where the high volume used toilets are now commanding a premium over the average new low water usage ones.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

OT: Just get one of the pressure assisted toilets. They are low water consumption, but they don't leave any of the nasty stuff left in the toilet.

They are a little louder than a normal toilet though.

 

[JohnKSa]

Just get one of the pressure assisted toilets. They are low water consumption, but they don't leave any of the nasty stuff left in the toilet.

Just make sure you close the lid before flushing to avoid getting hit by the spray!

 

[arinvolvo]

i have one pistol with an internal lock...i took the keys, and locked them up.

You dont HAVE to use it folks.

 

[4v50 Gary]

In the olde days, internal gun locks meant very little of the lock was seen outside of the stock. Today it has an entirely different meaning.

 

[El Tejon]

Unintended consequences for attempting to evade personal responsibility? Imagine that!

Mr. Mysterious, the internal lock is FAR worse than nothing as it gives false confidence to yeehaws you believe in "mechanical safeties."

SteveW13, can you say "Oh, Canada!"? Of course, easier for me being closer to Canada. Contractors around here make runs into Canada, er, um, so I've heard.

My guys make mucho dinero for non-Gore toilets. The world we live in.

 

[Kestrel]

I'm strongly opposed to internal gun locks. They are wrong for a number of reasons. It's a shame so many people are accepting of them.

My father has a shotgun that was made in the 60s, that has an internal lock (believe it or not). The internal lock no longer works and the trigger is rendered inoperable, unless you torque the entire locking mechanism with a screwdriver. Of course, it looks terrible, having to be forced to even work. The gun is no longer used, because of unreliability.

I resent the political and lawyer-caused reasons behind internal locks. I also hate the way they look. I won't buy one, unless I can replace the parts and restore it to original (like I did with my HK USPs).

I was talking to Remington's customer service last year. The guy was a jerk with a bad attitude - had no place talking on a customer service line. The subject of the J-locks on their M700s came up and I mentioned that I didn't buy them, that I hated internal locks and hated the putrid way the gun looks with that wart on the back of the bolt. He scoffed and said "there's nothing wrong with the way it looks - nobody complains about it". He said it with such derision.

Well, ironically, this year, Remington discontued the J-locks. I called and asked several people at Remington why they were discontinuing them. Each person said it was because people didn't like them. Someone should poke that jerk in the eye with one of those J-locks...

Sako is discontinuing the "Key Concept" locking device on their rifles. Beretta told be it was because people didn't like them.

It's a bad idea.

 

[Diggler]

Now, if anyone has a fix for all those Al Gore low-volume toilets, I'd like to hear it...

Resolve that from now on, you'll only flush ONCE. Anything left over has been left over by the congressmen that passed that bill. Find out who voted for the low-cap toilets, and box up the residual and send it to 'em!

Much more satisfying than waiting for the tank to fill up for a second flush.

 

[Kestrel]

Diggler,

Haha... That's what they deserve!

Steve

 

[stans]

All of my guns have internal locks. The lock is that thing inside my head, between my ears, and roughly located behind my eyes. It is a mysterious and becoming all too rare type of lock. It is called a brain. Seems most people have one, but few know how to use it.

 

[Black Snowman]

This thread reminded me of Standing Wolf's comment on Taurus backing out of the "Smart Gun" project:

"I'm the smarts behind all my guns."

I wouldn't have have predicted such a blatent example of this but I can't say I didn't expect something like it to happen. As a general rule people will be just as responsable as you expect them to be. By giving them such a crutch you invite stupidity like this. :banghead: It's not the safety's fault they're stupid but the moron might have been smart enough to use inert rounds if it hadn't been there.

This was part of the reason my 1st handgun was a Glock. I know guns are unsafe and have to be handled with respect. I learned it very young and I learned it well. So I had no problem with the lack of a manual safety because I knew if I was handling the gun properly neither it nor I wouldn't need a safety at all. Just like on all the revolvers I had learned on. A lack of a manual safety would make sure my gun handling skills didn't get sloppy and I wouldn't get dependant on it.

 

[Dan Forrester]

So I had no problem with the lack of a manual safety because I knew if I was handling the gun properly neither it nor I wouldn't need a safety at all. Just like on all the revolvers I had learned on. A lack of a manual safety would make sure my gun handling skills didn't get sloppy and I wouldn't get dependant on it.

I couldn’t agree more, although I learned most of what I know today from the internet and on my own. Another thing is I never dry fire a gun unless I absolutely have to. I cringe when I dry fire my Glock to clean it.

Back when I was 15 a acquired my first firearm, a 20 gauge pump shotgun packed with dog hair and a heavily pitted last 8 inches of barrel. I got that gun going again, and had a great time with it. It was my only gun, and I kept it loaded for home defense (my parents didn’t care as I was very responsible). One day I take it out to do a little shooting. I chamber a round and hear a big click. From that day on, I’ve purchased nothing but the most reliable firearms ever devised by man, and take meticulous care of them. The last thing I want is added complexity.

I have nothing wrong with integral locks, I just want a choice. That’s all!!!

Dan

 

[Amish_Bill]

"Extra" safeties....

yeah... what an idea.

There's a Taurus .38 around here somewhere. It has one of those hex-key 'safety' screws in the hammer. I really should remember where the 'key' for it is.... I'm not certain why I should bother with it, but it just sounds like something I should do.

I've toyed with the idea of sealing the lock in the "unlocked" position with a touch of Locktite Red and a bit of JB Weld.. Either that, or take the hammer out and see if a welder buddy can seal up the hole.