A Lady's Gun

[alfsauve]

Yes, I know the old joke. Guy walks into a gun store and says he's looking for a lady's gun. The clerks asks, "Why? You gonna shoot a lady?"

My wife, Miss Kitty, went out to the range with me recently. One of her few visits. She can shoot, but it's just not her passion. As a bed side gun, she's had a revolver for many years. A Charter Bulldog .44 to be specific. From 12 yards she downed 5 plates in a row with Critical Defense ammo. It took her about a minute, but still she's not afraid of guns. She fired, for the first time, my G17 and my S&W 686 (with an Apex work over), and while she liked the 686, she's has made up her mind she wants more rounds, 10+ preferable in a striker fired, no safety semi.

If you're still with me, we then went on to discuss what she liked and disliked about the G17. It boils down to the grip. To be specific the circumference of the grip where the 3rd finger goes.

What I'm looking for is a striker fired, no safety, 9mm semi, whose grip is <5" as measure below the trigger guard. Trouble is it needs to be a full sized gun to reduce recoil. This isn't for concealed carry. Ah there's the rub. Find a small grip and it's a small gun.

I haven't measured all the guns out there, but here's my prelim chart.

So far it leans towards the XDS 4 with an extended mag.

It appears that most manufactures think "small" means shorter, not smaller around.

How much can be shaved off a G17 or G19 grip?
While the Sig 320 is mix and match, how far can you go with a Glock? Can you actually mix the barrel and slide between models of some?

Anybody have measurements to help me fill in the chart?
Any other quality guns to recommend?

 

[gotboostvr]

The CZ 75 series with thin grips is thinner than a 1911, and shorter front-to-back.

It can be had as a DA/SA with a decocker, which maybe be a good option.

 

[hso]

Have her try the CZ.

 

[kokapelli]

Ruger SR9 has a nice slim grip and just ignore the safety.

 

[iwilc2]

S&W M&P can change grip sizes








Len

 

[C0untZer0]

I didn't see Kahr on there and I think they'd have less of a circumference since they're single stack, and they come in a variety of sizes and all-metal versions.

Another option is to get the Lone Wolf Distributors Timberwolf frame - which is thinner than the stock Glock frame.

https://www.lonewolfdist.com/products.aspx?CAT=3168

 

[danez71]

Promag makes a 10 round mag for the S&W Shield if that helps. It also lengthens the grip.

For anyone that can help with measurements, it needs to be consistent.

Can you describe how you measured? I mean, what did you use to measure the circumference? (A normal steel measuring tape would be tough... a soft foldable kind used in sewing maybe?)

 

[FL-NC]

Smith and Wesson M&P series would probably make the grade. Available without safety, modular grips, and also in a compact model 9mm- 10 shots. I like the Glock, so consider the 19- more compact than the 17, but not so small that recoil is significantly higher. My former unit uses the 19 as a standard issue duty pistol, as does the NYPD. Now- think out side the box. A Glock 17 (full size) can be shortened at the grip to Glock 19 dimensions and magazines. Or even Glock 26 if you REALLY want it shortened. I did my own, but Bowie Tactical Concepts will do a fine job of this for $70- along with a plethora of other mods if you wanted, like grip reduction, checkering, removal of finger grooves, etc. Check out their website.

 

[alfsauve]

Thanks so far. A point of clarity. There will be compromise, I'm sure, but SA/DA (CZ 75) and SA (1911) will NOT be one of those. Lecture away, but Miss Kitty, is never going to put in the time to become proficient with the manual of arms for those styles. She wants what she wants. [Actually, please don't lecture away, on this thread, it'll just waste band width here and pull the thread way off course.]

A Safety however, could be a compromise, so yes the SR9 is a possibility. It is on the short list for range rental the next time she comes with me.

M&P is a possibility though just a tad bigger than she'd like. I like it, plus, I'm a 0.000002% owner of S&W so it has my vote. Hoping the M&PC might be even smaller around.

Kahr, I don't perceive as having a small grip or bringing anything special that the others don't have.

Shield. Too small, too light. She's fired mine and not pleased with it.

Lone Wolf reduction is a possibility. I'm going to write them for a measurement. However, at $199 it's an expensive experiment. I could get a Sig320 Full size and experiment with an extra grip for only $45.



Short is not the same as small, at least here. And that's the problem, the industry thinks of small as 5.5" grip with a 6 round mag. The industry idea of small is for Concealed Carry and they just shorten the barrel, slide and grip. What Miss Kitty wants is a full size gun, 4"+ barrel, with a full length grip, just smaller around. This isn't for concealed carry, it's for bedside.

How I measured it. Yes, with a milner's or sewing tape measure. The same could be accomplished with a piece of string and ruler of any kind. No it's not precise and varies according to the ogive between the trigger guard and grip. This measurement will help narrow down the models to try when we go to the range next.

And I think most interchangeable backstraps mainly change the size of the lower half of the grip and doesn't help this measurement.

 

[Bo]

My younger sister, 1st time buyer and shooter, bought a XDS in 9mm. She loves it, carries it all the time.
Can't go wrong with Springfield, top notch CS and a warranty next to none.

 

[danez71]

Thanks for the explanation and pic.

I'll try to measure a M&P9c for you.

 

[FL-NC]

Bowie Tactical can also do a grip reduction.

 

[danez71]

M&P9c

I come up with:

5 4/16 Sm
5 6/16 Med
5 9/16+ Lrg (note: the large also adds to the beavertail which forces a lower grip)


ETA: I think it reasonable to expect some slight differences in measuring but I think that the difference in size is important. Also, there is more of a difference than the measurements above indicate closer to the 4th finger area as the grips seem to have most of the palm swell difference in that area between the Small and Med grip. The Med to Large grip difference is much more noticeable in everyway than the Small to Med grip difference.

 

[JDR]

My wife, Miss Kitty, went out to the range with me recently. One of her few visits. She can shoot, but it's just not her passion. As a bed side gun, she's had a revolver for many years. A Charter Bulldog .44 to be specific. From 12 yards she downed 5 plates in a row with Critical Defense ammo. It took her about a minute, but still she's not afraid of guns.

OP, the wife rarely practices her shooting but she shoots a Charter Bulldog .44spl. very well with a minimum of practice. Fact is, most people shoot revolvers better than semiautomatics with a minimum of practice. I say let her stick with that C/A Bulldog for HD purposes, or perhaps trade it for a S&W Model 69, an L-frame thing of beauty that gets my vote for being the best new .44 Special launcher on the market! As long as you reload for it (of course), this is "IMHO", a really great shooting handgun!

 

[Kittie]

I know the HK VP9 was nice and thin. This also had nice ergonomics. The Walther PPQ is similar in size.

You can take a little off the Glocks. Is it the over all diameter is too big? Or is it the placement of the finger grooves that is throwing her off?

My honest suggestion is to take her to a gun store in the area with the most variety in hand guns. Drop all stipulations and just let her touch and feel them all until she finds the one that just pops and fits right for her. Then work out what variant of that model is best suited for her. I think this will save you some time and head ache. Some times it is little things that no one else thinks of and you can't explain to another person that makes a gun just pop and the right one for you.

Have you worked with her on how to grip a semi-auto v.s. how she grips the revolver? I have ran into many people that try to hold a semi-auto like a revolver, and this leads to them having issues with it.

 

[alfsauve]

BO: Thanks for the vote for the XDS

Danez: Thanks for the measurement. Sounds promising

FL-NC: Will check Bowie out. Lone Wolf turned out to be 5.5"

JDR: She wants more than 5 rounds. 10 preferred she said. I might talk her into one of the 8 round S&Ws though. She might be happy with a 4" 627 or 327. As I said, there will be compromise and it might just have to be 8 rounds instead of 10.

Nix on the reloads for self-defense. Commercial rounds only, here. Not criticizing anyone else, just a decision I made a while back.

Kittie: Thanks for the info on the VP9.

We'll get to the store/range but not everyone carries every make. Did a little coaching with the grip, but she does well. Slow, deliberate but well. I'm trying to avoid most of the pitfalls of husband-coaching-wife.

Everyone: She's clear to me on a) More rounds b) No manual safety c) Not light weight, i.e. fun to shoot with SD ammo.. I only had the G17 and a 686 with me at that time. We will go back to the outdoor range together when school is out and I'll let her shoot everything else I have to see if her parameters change. Once we narrow down the models we'll look for an indoor range that has the candidate guns for rent, so she can not only handle them but shoot them with SD ammo. Not everybody has VP9s or M&P C, or FNS, or XDS or PPS, much less an R51 in rental inventory.

Here's one last angle. Shooting isn't her passion. But we're retiring soon and what if she had a gun that she enjoyed shooting enough she might actually LIKE going to the range regularly? Even maybe shooting in a match? If Miss Kitty is happy, everybody's happy.

 

[Tallball]

I haven't paid enough attention to its exact features, so maybe it doesn't meet the requirements, but my FiL had my MiL check out a whole lot of different pistols and she chose the Sig 250. Aren't they the "modular" ones where you can switch out different pieces? I think she has the medium-sized pieces. She doesn't like recoil at all, but says that this one is gentle and fits her hands very well.

 

[gotboostvr]

The XDS 4.0 in 9mm might be a great choice. Nice slim single stack grip, with enough barrel to get that bullet moovin'

 

[alfsauve]

TallBall: She'd prefer the 320/250, but it appears the grips (compact, carry, full) are all the same circumference. With all of Sig's hype about different sizes fitting different hands you'd think the grips would vary more. Got to find a store with all three sized models.

Gotboostvr: The XDS with an extended mag is a definitely on the short list. Thanks.

 

[HGM22]

I gotta say I'm impressed by her shooting; she should shoot even more if she can do that with a .44!

I'm a huge CZ fanboy, so I'll ask why she can't go with DA/SA? Its really not any more complicated than striker-fired (point at bad guy and pull trigger). And I think it adds a little more margin for error with regards to accidentally pulling the trigger, especially for someone who doesn't practice all that much. If by some chance you do decide to go with CZ, keep in mind Cajun Gun Works and probably others sell trigger reach reduction kits. Also, the Omega CZ guns (P07/P09, CZ 75 Omega, etc.) allow one to switch between DA/SA and safety in a matter of minutes. I wish I could help more, but striker guns aren't my thing.

Edit: There is also the .327 Federal Magnum in a revolver too. I'm not too familiar with the offerings, but a full size revolver could probably hold 7-9 rounds, and I like the round a lot. However, I do think the auto is a better choice than the revolver assuming she can operate the controls/pull back the slide.

On the same vein, why not a rifle? If the gun doesn't need to be concealed, the rifle is the way to go; more powerful, easier to operate, more ammo, and can be accessorized to give her major advantages (red dot sight is quicker to acquire and easy to see at night, a light allows her to ID target, and sling allows her to drop gun to use hands for something else (applying first aid, grabbing phone, switching to her sidearm if her rifle goes down, etc.). You could get a lever action in .38/357, .327, .44Spl/Mag (and interchange ammo with current gun), etc. or go with an auto like the M1 Carbine, AK, AR, Mini 14/30, etc.

I myself like the AR15 due to its low recoil and the fact that good .223 ammo is less likely to penetrate interior walls than even a 9mm. If cost is an issue the S&W Sport or Ruger AR556 seem to be well-liked and certainly capable of low round count HD. You could also take advantage of the low prices on ARs and get a Colt, which is a really great rifle at a really good price. I'd suggest a Colt 6720 Lightweight Carbine. You could even go a step further and get a pinned/welded 14.5 or SBR from another outfit (or Colt, but BCM shines if you want to go more custom though there are plenty of great AR15 manufacturers) to reduce size and weight.

 

[Tirod]

Perception will eliminate the one gun that will work. If you haven't measured it or she doesn't hold it, then it's potentially still a possible choice. Secondly, don't intrude on her buying decision. If she prefers a particular gun, be prepared for it to be something already eliminated.

Because human, not even gender based. Nobody can really tell you what you prefer.

Don't overthink it - let her make her own decision.

 

[Iggy]

Arthritis got to bothering my wife when she practiced with a S&W 442. We went shopping. I was leaning towards a 9 MM for her, but she came home with a Kahr CW45.

Revolver like double action trigger, no safety, big enough grip that the .45ACP rounds were more comfortable to shoot than the .38.

I was so impressed with the gun that I bought one 3 days later. Put a TUFF-1 grip sleeve on them and they are a breeze to shoot. You can use 1911 magazines in the guns too. Retired a 100 year old .45 Cal revolver for a plastic gun..

I been hidin' under a rock so the lightning won't git me, but we both like the guns and carry them daily.

 

[alfsauve]

Thanks for all the input. Depends on how work goes tomorrow I will try to make it to another gun store with my tape measure.

Triod: I didn't ask for or even suggest this. She's tasked me to replace her Bulldog and has given me her ideas of what she wants. She will handle and fire as many as possible. I'll try to keep an open mind and take to heart your advice.

Iggy: Good to know. And yes, arthritis may be in our future. Yes, I love wheel guns too, but also own, and EDC bottom feeders.

HGM22: She shoots very slowly and has never flinched that I know of. She'd probably do well in handgun silhouette. She also probably has fired only 200 rounds in our 46+ years of marriage. Shooting is not her passion. She has no desire to do except to assure herself she can pull the trigger on her revolver. For that reason, she's reasoned, on her own, that she can not be trusted with a gun that has any manual of arms beyond pulling the trigger. I agree. That rules out anything with a safety or that takes any manipulation to bring it into action. This includes any SA/DA or SA only. We have an AR in the bedroom. Her opinion? Looks to complicated. She will NOT take the time to learn how to use it. Period. End of discussion. No lectures please. She can get away with this attitude because she knows that there are guns, like her revolver and like the Glock that can be put into action by simply pointing and shooting.

 

[HGM22]

I'm confused; there is practically no difference between a DA/SA semi-auto and a DA(/SA) revolver. You must load the chambers of both (rack slide vs. load cylinder). Then you simply pull the trigger on both. The ONLY difference I can see (beyond loading mags, but you did say she's ok with an auto) is that you have to hit the decocker after racking the slide; this is hardly complicated. The Glock-style safety is also very simple to use, though they tend to be lighter than the DA/SA guns (and hence slightly more likely to be discharged accidentally).

 

[ljnowell]

Canik TP9SA or TP9SF.