plexreticle
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It's not a jumbo jet.
Sigs off,
tl:dr
a LEO funny
- Thread starter Neener Neener
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It's not a jumbo jet.
Sigs off,
tl:dr
I think that in the battle against ignorance it's important for everyone to learn about the things they use. A person should absolutely know the make and model and year of the car they drive.
Imagine:
"yes officer the bad guy carjacked me and grabbed a little kid from the parking lot and sped off"
"Can you give me a description of your vehicle"
"yes sir, it was red"
Same applies to a stolen gun,computer or whatever. And especially for internet users, you can learn the basics of almost anything in very little time.
Never stop learning....ever.
Imagine:
"yes officer the bad guy carjacked me and grabbed a little kid from the parking lot and sped off"
"Can you give me a description of your vehicle"
"yes sir, it was red"
Same applies to a stolen gun,computer or whatever. And especially for internet users, you can learn the basics of almost anything in very little time.
Never stop learning....ever.
plexreticle
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How many people here use a computer at their job?
Who here knows how a logic chip is made and the difference between manufacturing logic vs memory chips.
Who knows the rating of the power supply on their computer at work without looking?
What is the refresh rate set at on your work computer monitor?
What is the refresh rate?
Video card, audio card, mother board type, how many RAM slots on your work system?
If someone doesn't know this off the top of their head are they mediocre?
My computer at work can take out city utilities for about 500,000 people. It's a critical piece of equipment but I don't need to waste my time on a bunch of trivia about computers to use it.
Who here knows how a logic chip is made and the difference between manufacturing logic vs memory chips.
Who knows the rating of the power supply on their computer at work without looking?
What is the refresh rate set at on your work computer monitor?
What is the refresh rate?
Video card, audio card, mother board type, how many RAM slots on your work system?
If someone doesn't know this off the top of their head are they mediocre?
My computer at work can take out city utilities for about 500,000 people. It's a critical piece of equipment but I don't need to waste my time on a bunch of trivia about computers to use it.
JasperST5
member
My guess is that she was giving you the brush off.
How would someone know the model name of a pistol if it never came up? Chances are the department picked them out, I would assume those making the decision looked at the various models but didn't see fit to pass on irrelevant information. Some folks take their hobbies too seriously.
I'm somewhat surprised they issued 1911s, I think that's the big story. If I was a cop I would be happy with the choice.
pbearperry
Member
If you asked me what kind of ammo am I carrying with that attitude,I would have told you to look down the barrel and take a peek.
I always hated it when a person would walk up to me and ask about my gun, ammo, ballisics, holsters, how fast I could draw. Most of the time I would do just what the deputies did, leaving the gun expert shaking his head walking away but getting out of my way and letting me do my job.
It is just my opinion, but I think their are a lot of "gun experts" out there who just like to boost their personal credentials by being able to say how much smarter they are then the guys who carry guns for a living.
It is just my opinion, but I think their are a lot of "gun experts" out there who just like to boost their personal credentials by being able to say how much smarter they are then the guys who carry guns for a living.
yhtomit
Member
I think it's a typical breakdown.
Since I'm interested in guns and have frequent contact with police (DA's office internship), I like to ask the officers I meet about their guns. Some of them are "into guns," some of them basically shrug, don't really consider their guns much except for qualification. I'm not saying they're not competent with them (not my domain of knowledge) -- just that they don't have any particular interest in it greater than they do in the other pieces of equipment they carry.
timothy
p.s. plexreticle's analogy is apt. I am interested in the trivia of guns, but one need not be interested in the trivia to be a competent user.
Since I'm interested in guns and have frequent contact with police (DA's office internship), I like to ask the officers I meet about their guns. Some of them are "into guns," some of them basically shrug, don't really consider their guns much except for qualification. I'm not saying they're not competent with them (not my domain of knowledge) -- just that they don't have any particular interest in it greater than they do in the other pieces of equipment they carry.
timothy
p.s. plexreticle's analogy is apt. I am interested in the trivia of guns, but one need not be interested in the trivia to be a competent user.
Not Unusual
I read the book "BLUE BLOOD" by Edward CONLON, a NYPD Detective. CONLON, a native NEW YORKER made it clear in his book that he did not like gun enthusiasts or their questions. This is not an unusual attitude for non-gun people.
At MIAMI INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT in 1995, I once had a woman come up and ask why I and another officer were wearing guns in an airport, we both worked for the I&NS at that time and were in uniform.
I just ignored her as being too stupid to reply to. The other officer asked her where she lived. It was some northern city, I forget which. He then asked if the police there wore guns. She replied,"yes". He then said, "ask them why they carry guns"?
She got upset and walked away. I heard her complaining, "IT WAS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION" as she stomped off.
I thought it was one of the stupidest questions I had ever heard, but have since discovered it is not that unusual.
These days, most people learn about guns from tv. Not the best of teachers.
Jim
I read the book "BLUE BLOOD" by Edward CONLON, a NYPD Detective. CONLON, a native NEW YORKER made it clear in his book that he did not like gun enthusiasts or their questions. This is not an unusual attitude for non-gun people.
At MIAMI INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT in 1995, I once had a woman come up and ask why I and another officer were wearing guns in an airport, we both worked for the I&NS at that time and were in uniform.
I just ignored her as being too stupid to reply to. The other officer asked her where she lived. It was some northern city, I forget which. He then asked if the police there wore guns. She replied,"yes". He then said, "ask them why they carry guns"?
She got upset and walked away. I heard her complaining, "IT WAS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION" as she stomped off.
I thought it was one of the stupidest questions I had ever heard, but have since discovered it is not that unusual.
These days, most people learn about guns from tv. Not the best of teachers.
Jim
bannockburn
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I took an advanced CCW class a couple of years ago, taught by the firearms instructor of a large metro police force. As is the norm, they carried Glocks. When I showed him my carry weapon, a Colt Commander, all he said was: "Oh, old school". He and his assistant, who was the department's martial arts instructor, both admitted that while they knew about most makes of guns, they really didn't have too much interest in what they carried on duty. As long as it was functional, reliable, and accurate, they were good to go with it. Actually I don't believe the martial arts instructor would have even needed a gun, as his moves were so quick and his ability to disarm you so effective, all you could do was just watch in amazement.
moooose102
Member
W O W ! ! ! this post is getting pretty harsh. i.m.o. yes, the oficcer should know more about his firearm than "its a 1911". he needs to know EXACTLY how it operates, its quirks, its good and bad points. he needs to be able to shoot a soda can off from a rock @ 20 feet or 20 yards. BUT, it is his life, (and maybe, his partners), and if that isn't very important to him, well who are we to judge? all i can say, is that if i ever NEED an officer to rescue me, i hope he is well versed with his gun. things may go much better, for all of us.
mossy141701
Member
Hey I've got a quote for you> MY DOG AIN"T IN THIS RACE !The Wiry Irishman
Member
I know a couple people that don't know squat about their guns other than maybe the name, can't tell you names of parts or what everything does, but they can still field strip it, maintain it, and practice with it enough to be respectable shots.
Just like there's plenty of people that love to drive, are pretty decent at it, but don't necessarily know all the complexities of their car's drive train.
Just like there's plenty of people that love to drive, are pretty decent at it, but don't necessarily know all the complexities of their car's drive train.
Cops and a Glock
Training a Police Officer to shoot a Glock pistol is easy, take it apart a couple of times, then they know know how it works, draw and dry fire for a while, draw and fire, kind of close target, nearly all do well.
Not brain surgery, the biggest danger with any self loading weapon, taking out the magazine (Bullet storage device) does not necessary make the pistol safe.
So drill the sequence into heads... Point in safe direction, remove magazine, place in pocket... rack slide three times... If three rounds fly out, what ever you put in your pocket was not the magazine.
If it is in holster, it is loaded, stored, empty, no rounds in it. Where you are out of touch, gun is empty.
A few LEOs are frightened of guns, caused by silly trainers, great tool to have if it is gun time, just a big chunk of metal, if it is not gun time, keep it safe.
Training a Police Officer to shoot a Glock pistol is easy, take it apart a couple of times, then they know know how it works, draw and dry fire for a while, draw and fire, kind of close target, nearly all do well.
Not brain surgery, the biggest danger with any self loading weapon, taking out the magazine (Bullet storage device) does not necessary make the pistol safe.
So drill the sequence into heads... Point in safe direction, remove magazine, place in pocket... rack slide three times... If three rounds fly out, what ever you put in your pocket was not the magazine.
If it is in holster, it is loaded, stored, empty, no rounds in it. Where you are out of touch, gun is empty.
A few LEOs are frightened of guns, caused by silly trainers, great tool to have if it is gun time, just a big chunk of metal, if it is not gun time, keep it safe.
Revolver Ocelot
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I wouldn't expect the leo to know the specifics of their sidearms, however I would expect them to at the very least know the make and model of said firearm at to the point where they could explain to another person proper use and disassembly of the gun so that I can feel safe in the event they would have to use it in a situation where a persons life was in danger.
point I'm trying to make is how can I feel comfortable that they know how to use their handgun effectively if they don't even know what it is.
point I'm trying to make is how can I feel comfortable that they know how to use their handgun effectively if they don't even know what it is.
It's a common attitude among cops. I'm a firearms instructor at my Dept and, let me tell you, there are quite a few (even in my small Dept of 6 full time, including the Chief, and 9 part time) that couldn't tell you the model of their sidearm, the magazine capacity (they just stuff in "shells" until they can't stuff any more in), the type of duty ammo we use (they just know we give it to them at the end of spring qualifications after shooting up our old duty ammo) and would be lucky to tell you the make of their weapon. All they know (or want to know) is the caliber so they can get loaded up when it's their turn on the line. Despite this, most have carried the same sidearm so long that they have little if any trouble qualifying with it.
What you have to understand, as was stated above, is that the sidearm is only a tool to most cops. They are not gun nuts and they don't go shooting every weekend. In fact, we have a hard time getting most to shoot any extra at all, except for twice-annual qualifications, even with ammo provided free. Quite a few on my Dept have even told me that they wouldn't carry at all if it wasn't required for the job. They have basic competence with their sidearms and that's about the best you can hope for. I don't understand it, myself; granted, the sidearm is a small part of the job but, if you need it, you need it RIGHT NOW! You need to know how it shoots at 6", 6', 60' and so on. It's like basic computer skills. Most people in the US today know enough to get by and that's all. They don't know how to write a program and most don't even know how to perform basic maintenance. They just use it. Well, that's the way it is with cops and guns. They just use it, mostly at least fairly well given their complete non-interest. And, given the political climate today, that's the best you can expect. It's rare nowadays to find a cop who is a genuine gun nut or who has even handled a firearm before the academy and knows all about their weapon- hell, it's hard to find a cop that owns their weapon- most of the large Depts issue you your weapon when you are hired, then you turn it back in if you quit or retire or if it quits working. With rules like that, it's hard to get enthused about your weapon and it becomes what it is to most- a tool, nothing more.
Bub
What you have to understand, as was stated above, is that the sidearm is only a tool to most cops. They are not gun nuts and they don't go shooting every weekend. In fact, we have a hard time getting most to shoot any extra at all, except for twice-annual qualifications, even with ammo provided free. Quite a few on my Dept have even told me that they wouldn't carry at all if it wasn't required for the job. They have basic competence with their sidearms and that's about the best you can hope for. I don't understand it, myself; granted, the sidearm is a small part of the job but, if you need it, you need it RIGHT NOW! You need to know how it shoots at 6", 6', 60' and so on. It's like basic computer skills. Most people in the US today know enough to get by and that's all. They don't know how to write a program and most don't even know how to perform basic maintenance. They just use it. Well, that's the way it is with cops and guns. They just use it, mostly at least fairly well given their complete non-interest. And, given the political climate today, that's the best you can expect. It's rare nowadays to find a cop who is a genuine gun nut or who has even handled a firearm before the academy and knows all about their weapon- hell, it's hard to find a cop that owns their weapon- most of the large Depts issue you your weapon when you are hired, then you turn it back in if you quit or retire or if it quits working. With rules like that, it's hard to get enthused about your weapon and it becomes what it is to most- a tool, nothing more.
Bub
Old Dog
Member
I guess it's never occurred to a lot of you that when a perfect stranger, approaches you out of the blue and starts asking questions about the firearm on your hip, it can strike you as a tad bit weird (especially since it always seems people ask all the strange questions when you're taking your lunch break six hours into your shift and you've only got five minutes to choke your food down, or the timing is otherwise awkward 'cause you're trying to get somewhere, get some paperwork done on the fly, or in the middle of an interview, etc.), making you wonder about the person asking the question(s) and where he's coming from ... Why is this guy asking me what our duty load is while I'm standing here, obviously busy, in the ER of the local hospital? Next time, I'm gonna say, "Brass colored" instead of Federal Hydra-Shok 124 grain +P+ JHPs and maybe the weirdo will go away a little faster ...
coloradokevin
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Here's another LEO weighing in:
My perspective is this: A cop needs to know how to shoot, operate, clean, and maintain his/her weapon. This is coming from me, a cop who has been shooting since the age of 5. I know more about my weapons than a lot of guys in my department, simply because it is a hobby for me (in addition to a piece of safety equipment).
Nevertheless, whether or not the LEO realizes that the ambi-safety is an upgrade (rather than a standard feature) is virtually irrelevant. Knowing every intricate detail about the ammo is also not necessary (do we really care how many grains of powder push the JHP bullet towards the target? No, we care that it gets there). Certainly an operational knowledge of the weapon is important, but this doesn't mean that the officer needs to be a qualified armorer to carry the gun (I drive the Crown Vic at work, but I'm certainly no mechanic).
Now, obviously there are some fellow officers that make us all sick with their lack of knowledge about their firearm(s). I went to qualify one day with one of my shift partners (he has been on the job for two years). He did not know how to disassemble his weapon for cleaning (a Glock), and needed the range staff to show him how! That is a bit appalling, and demonstrates a basic lack of knowledge regarding that tool.
But, just because an officer doesn't know what features constitute a "loaded" 1911, doesn't mean they aren't capable of operating the weapon in a tactical environment.
Honestly, I can't recall with certainty what grain bullet my duty weapon is carrying currently. We are issued the ammo out-of-box, and I can't recall what I was told three years ago when we switched to that ammo. I know that it is a Speer Gold Dot JHP bullet, but the grain weight of the bullet is irrelevant... It doesn't matter because I don't have a choice of using anything different anyway!!! I shoot this bullet often, and I know where it lands on the target (and that is important).
My own personal firearms are a bit different. I can tell you what is in my own firearms, because I buy and choose that ammo myself (ie: 165gr Speer Gold Dot in my .40S&W Glock).
Does all of this mean I am unqualified to carry my firearm? I think not, and my qualification scores would support my view on this.
(for the record I'm nearly positive that I am carrying a 200gr bullet in my duty weapon... But, again, what difference does it make to me when it is the only "choice" I have?)
I should also add that I know far less about the lightbar on the top of my marked unit than I do my firearms, but I still feel qualified to operate that piece of equipment... One of the guys on my shift is something of an armchair lightbar expert, and is always talking about the various features and visibility of any given brand/model of lightbars. I couldn't care less about that topic, simply because I (once again) have no say in the matter. I get the lightbar they give me, and I live with it. Lightbars are not my hobby, even though they are important pieces of safety equipment, so I really just live with what I have.
My perspective is this: A cop needs to know how to shoot, operate, clean, and maintain his/her weapon. This is coming from me, a cop who has been shooting since the age of 5. I know more about my weapons than a lot of guys in my department, simply because it is a hobby for me (in addition to a piece of safety equipment).
Nevertheless, whether or not the LEO realizes that the ambi-safety is an upgrade (rather than a standard feature) is virtually irrelevant. Knowing every intricate detail about the ammo is also not necessary (do we really care how many grains of powder push the JHP bullet towards the target? No, we care that it gets there). Certainly an operational knowledge of the weapon is important, but this doesn't mean that the officer needs to be a qualified armorer to carry the gun (I drive the Crown Vic at work, but I'm certainly no mechanic).
Now, obviously there are some fellow officers that make us all sick with their lack of knowledge about their firearm(s). I went to qualify one day with one of my shift partners (he has been on the job for two years). He did not know how to disassemble his weapon for cleaning (a Glock), and needed the range staff to show him how! That is a bit appalling, and demonstrates a basic lack of knowledge regarding that tool.
But, just because an officer doesn't know what features constitute a "loaded" 1911, doesn't mean they aren't capable of operating the weapon in a tactical environment.
Honestly, I can't recall with certainty what grain bullet my duty weapon is carrying currently. We are issued the ammo out-of-box, and I can't recall what I was told three years ago when we switched to that ammo. I know that it is a Speer Gold Dot JHP bullet, but the grain weight of the bullet is irrelevant... It doesn't matter because I don't have a choice of using anything different anyway!!! I shoot this bullet often, and I know where it lands on the target (and that is important).
My own personal firearms are a bit different. I can tell you what is in my own firearms, because I buy and choose that ammo myself (ie: 165gr Speer Gold Dot in my .40S&W Glock).
Does all of this mean I am unqualified to carry my firearm? I think not, and my qualification scores would support my view on this.
(for the record I'm nearly positive that I am carrying a 200gr bullet in my duty weapon... But, again, what difference does it make to me when it is the only "choice" I have?)
I should also add that I know far less about the lightbar on the top of my marked unit than I do my firearms, but I still feel qualified to operate that piece of equipment... One of the guys on my shift is something of an armchair lightbar expert, and is always talking about the various features and visibility of any given brand/model of lightbars. I couldn't care less about that topic, simply because I (once again) have no say in the matter. I get the lightbar they give me, and I live with it. Lightbars are not my hobby, even though they are important pieces of safety equipment, so I really just live with what I have.
Landric
Member
I have absolutely no idea what model number my portable radio is, was frequency is operates on, or any other specific information about it. I am quite capable of using it. I am sure that out there somewhere there is a web forum for radio enthusiasts, and if one of those those people asked me about my radio, I'm sure that I would be considered an idiot by the various forum members for not knowing its model number or number of programmable channels.
What matters is whether the officer in question can use his sidearm effectively, not whether he knows that the factory calls it "loaded".
I'm a gun nut, I know all about my issued weapon, holster, and ammunition, because it is my hobby in addition to a tool I use. However, if someone approached me and asked about it, I might or might not let on that I knew anything about the gun, it would depend on the feeling I had about the person asking and what I was doing at the time.
What matters is whether the officer in question can use his sidearm effectively, not whether he knows that the factory calls it "loaded".
I'm a gun nut, I know all about my issued weapon, holster, and ammunition, because it is my hobby in addition to a tool I use. However, if someone approached me and asked about it, I might or might not let on that I knew anything about the gun, it would depend on the feeling I had about the person asking and what I was doing at the time.
ok let me clearify. He asked if it was the loaded model.officer responds.yes it's loaded it's got 7-8 rounds.I'm ok with this
neener then asks "no I mean is it the model with ambi safety and night sights."( I know i'm speculating here but those are two features a gunny would ask about) the officer should be able to answer ya they got ambi safetys and night sights.
Although I agree poor timing asking at the scene of an accident.
JasperST5
member
I think it's poor timing anytime. I wouldn't want someone coming up to me quizzing me about my sidearm if they noticed I was packing. And cops have the misfortune of having a lot of enemies out there that they don't even know. Put yourself in their shoes.
Mad Magyar
Member
+1
I think this notion of LEO's not being "hip" on nomenclature might be over-stated. I've always been concerned about their training, or lack of, when "all Hell breaks loose."
Another "you have to understand most LEOs meet the established criteria and that is it" comment. But, that criteria and the training that goes with it affords a standard many gun owners could not meet. Most are at least as skilled as the average gun owner, many are more skilled, and a few possess truelly impressive skill sets firearms wise. The best are among the best.
That said, as already pointed out, it is natural that given groups of enthusiasts will find most of them possess less than enthusiast level knowledge, skill, and abilty.
That said, as already pointed out, it is natural that given groups of enthusiasts will find most of them possess less than enthusiast level knowledge, skill, and abilty.
papajohn
Member
I was a rookie at my PD who got drafted into being a trainer, because I could shoot well, and I apparently had a knack for teaching others how. It amazed me that out of a 45-man department, only one or two were "gun cranks" like me. We had to qualify quarterly, and most looked forward to it the way most people think of a Root Canal. They cared nothing about bullet weight, brand, style, and most only knew the name of the gun because it was on the box.
I spent a lot of time ducking muzzles, talking safety and retention techniques, but all they really cared about was getting qualified and getting back on the street. There were a few that were interested in Isoceles vs Weaver, or things they had heard about in the academy, but most dreaded the whole process. And when we switched from revolvers to Triple-retention holsters and 9mm autos, the whining and complaining went on for a year. Only when merit raises were tied to qualification scores did we finally get their attention!
Papajohn
I spent a lot of time ducking muzzles, talking safety and retention techniques, but all they really cared about was getting qualified and getting back on the street. There were a few that were interested in Isoceles vs Weaver, or things they had heard about in the academy, but most dreaded the whole process. And when we switched from revolvers to Triple-retention holsters and 9mm autos, the whining and complaining went on for a year. Only when merit raises were tied to qualification scores did we finally get their attention!
Papajohn
oneiron
Member
This thread sure took a down hill. Believe it or not but the most important tool of LEO Is th pencil next is his shield.
Today LEO literately have the opportunity to go into a war zone, and he need more than a side arm. An AR, Pump shotgun and a Automatic that will hod as many rounds a possible. He need fire power today. In my day I have been in situations where the crowds were of forty to fifty angry people and the only thing I depended was my shield.
Today LEO literately have the opportunity to go into a war zone, and he need more than a side arm. An AR, Pump shotgun and a Automatic that will hod as many rounds a possible. He need fire power today. In my day I have been in situations where the crowds were of forty to fifty angry people and the only thing I depended was my shield.
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