Changing My Stance On Open Carry

[JesseL]

Either open or concealed should have to get a lic. as far as I am concerned. Prove you can shoot and have to go to classes...Simple really...

So you believe that my state of Arizona should prohibit unlicensed open carry and require everyone who currently engages in unlicensed open carry to either stop carrying, get a permit, or go to jail? Why? What kind of harm have they been causing?

 

[Tacbandit]

"I do see your point, but wouldn't you agree that should be changed? Sheeple shouldn't wince or go balistic when they see a gun displayed openly. And how do we change that public perception except by OCing?

Personally, however, my main reason for wanting to OC is because it's easier and more practical for SD. Changing public perception would just be a good side-effect."

~Dale


Mr. D, I totally agree...People shouldn't freak out...but they do, for whatever reason...Lack of knowlege,upbringing(or lack of it), fears,phobias, whatever. I just wonder if a hard-line attitude about our rights is the only way. If you have the OC,...cool. Slight common-sense concessions(not forfeitures of rights) could go a long way...

 

[JesseL]

We have an
OC permit, and we're carrying...We're on our way to little Johnny/Judys' ball game...Is it so hard to pull out the shirt-tail, etc., for the duration of a kids
outdoor athletic event..?You're stilled armed...Is it so important that we have to say"Hey...look at me...I'm armed, because I have a permit, and I can be?"

You're overlooking one thing. In a lot of places no permit is required to open carry, but it is required for concealed carry. Someone without a permit often doesn't have the legal option to cover up their gun. I was in that situation myself for 6 years, before my wife paid for me to get a CWP for Christmas one year.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Treo,

I find myself at a conundrum of sorts... on the one hand, I wholeheartedly agree that OC is a good thing that should be exercised by EVERY "Free" American citizen who can. I agree with the quote that "if a man refuses to demand his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example."

The other part of me remembered, SOMEBODY around this board has a sig line that is pertinent to this discussion... who was it?

I'm not being sarcastic or joking at all when I say I did an alt+f for "authorities" knowing it would pull up the quote if on this page, and I was suprised to see, it's your sig line -

It is very possible that we have arrived at the time when a wise man feels the need to avoid the notice of authorities -- regardless of his personal character.

I think there is a great deal of wisdom in this statement.

To be honest, I've been wondering for the last several days whether just participating in these discussions - just being a member of this board - is a wise thing to do.

What the question really comes down to is whether we have yet reached the point where our actions are futile, or whether there is still hope for positive change.

I'm really struggling with this and don't know which way to go.

The idealist in me says I should open carry and fight for my rights.

The pessimist in me warns that that point may have passed, and drawing attention to myself at this point may only lead to loss.

Winston Churchill once said "If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

So the whole question is, which time are we in? And, if the latter, is the best way to fight by OCing?

This deeply troubles me. I do not know.

 

[Mr. D]

Tacbandit, Ok, I see what you're saying. Loose a battle now and then; win the war.

Chupacabra,

I think your quote from Churchill should answer your question. If we are in the time when we can "easily win without bloodshed" and our "victory will be sure," we had better be fighting! If the time is past that, and all the odds are against us, we should still be fighting - fighting for survival. If we are in times where there is no hope of victory, than we should be fighting so as not to live as slaves.

I'm sure you're familiar with Henry's famous quote: "Give me liberty, or give me death!" I think that applies here, whatever the case may be. You might say "ok, so we fight. But is OC the best way?" Well, what other way is there?

~Dale

 

[Tacbandit]

Quote:
"You're overlooking one thing. In a lot of places no permit is required to open carry, but it is required for concealed carry. Someone without a permit often doesn't have the legal option to cover up their gun. I was in that situation myself for 6 years, before my wife paid for me to get a CWP for Christmas one year."


You're so right...(And hooraayy for the wife). I was really addressing our
willingness to make concessions where they might benefit us overall, as to public perception, where legal of course. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sort of on the opposite side of the coin, in that mine HAS to be concealed. In so much as I want to do all I can to help, I make sure mine stays unseen, totally.
I don't advertise. From the other perspective though, if I could carry either way, I would still be willing to let good judgement over-rule my shirt tail...

 

[Creature]

Excellent post elChupacabra!.

Sir Winston was a very wise and crafty old man.

So, IRT to OC...no better time than the present. I have never OC'ed and I am quite nervous about doing so. But I am going to do it..because a right not exercised is a right lost.

 

[Treo]

Either open or concealed should have to get a lic. as far as I am concerned.

And what happens when the Government decides to revoke everybody's license?

Colorado allows OC sans permit and we don't seem to be killing one another.

It's been said once you license a right it's not a right any more.

 

[ZeSpectre]

The idealist in me says I should open carry and fight for my rights.

The pessimist in me warns that that point may have passed, and drawing attention to myself at this point may only lead to loss.

This sounds like you would willing to "give up liberty for security". Ben Franklin had some biting words to say on that matter.

Mind you, I struggle with it myself.

At this point in my life I feel like I have a GREAT DEAL to lose and it is very tempting to "lay low" and try to avoid notice. Yet some gnawing, relentless, drive will not allow that to be and thus someday I suspect I'm going to find myself risking it all to try and preserve the basic human rights and freedoms in which I strongly believe. I have no shame in admitting that the thought of such a situation scares me spineless which is why I work so hard NOW, within the system, to try and stave it off for as long as humanly possible.

 

[Treo]

The other part of me remembered, SOMEBODY around this board has a sig line that is pertinent to this discussion... who was it?

Time to change the sig line

As has now been done

 

[Creature]

At this point in my life I feel like I have a GREAT DEAL to lose and it is very tempting to "lay low" and try to avoid notice. Yet some gnawing, relentless, drive will not allow that to be and thus someday I suspect I'm going to find myself risking it all to try and preserve the basic human rights and freedoms in which I strongly believe.

Liberty and old age are not for the faint of heart.

 

[Tacbandit]

Any Arizona poster...What are the laws/requirements/restrictions about OC in your state, as they apply to each resident...Just curious...
Thanks...

 

[CentralTexas]

Well I'm now ifn favor of OC because....

My rational is this, when people carried the first Cell Phones people gawked. No one looks twice now.*

With us carrying concealed, it seems to the public that there are no gun owners and when they do see one they freak out.

The public will get used to it in a short time, realize lots of people have guns -and they seem normal and get on with life.



*please feel free to point out that people don't get killed by cell phones if you must.

 

[PTK]

I'm about to get flamed, hard

You and me both, brother.

With the right to CC comes the responsibility to keep things concealed. He didn't do that, he got hassled.

Isn't OC legal in Colorado?

Entirely.


It sure is an interesting dichotomy here on THR to have some fully ok with OC, and some quite against the right to carry a gun openly.

 

[elChupacabra!]

ZeSpectre -

I have no shame in admitting that the thought of such a situation scares me spineless which is why I work so hard NOW, within the system, to try and stave it off for as long as humanly possible.

That's the point I'm at now, and truly, I'm doing what I can to defend our liberties, as well. I am a contributing member of the NRA, I write my Senators and Representatives on a fairly regular basis, I take my coworkers shooting, discuss firearms in an honest, open and positive light with everyone I can - heck I even addressed a County Commission a few weeks ago to defend Concealed Carry into county owned buildings.

I currently don't OC (save to and from the range) due to the social stigma... maybe I should consider doing it more often.

Again, please don't misconstrue my previous post to hear that I'm afraid to fight. I'm not... I'm just troubled. I'm just expressing here the turmoil that I'm going through inside with (really) no outlet for it but here.

Thanks for listening friends.

 

[JesseL]

Tacbandit:

In Arizona, open carry is legal for anyone who can legally own a handgun. Places off limits are the same as for concealed carry (prisons, public schools, game refuges, power plants, polling places on election day, places that serve alcohol for on premises consumption, etc.) Car carry without a license requires the gun be in a belt holster, map pocket, glovebox, plain sight, or inaccessible (under the seat is a no no unless you have a CWP).

An openly carried weapon has to be "carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons".

State preemption is pretty thorough, with the only exception being that cities can prohibit unlicensed carry in parks and such.

I suggest looking over at opencarry.org's Arizona page and the Arizona Revised Statutes Title 13 Chapter 31

 

[ZeSpectre]

*please feel free to point out that people don't get killed by cell phones if you must.

Cell phones as dangerous as drunk driving

Is having a cell phone pressed to your ear while behind the wheel the equivalent of driving while intoxicated? According to a study by University of Utah psychologists, the answer is, unfortunately, yes.

"Just like you put yourself and other people at risk when you drive drunk, you put yourself and others at risk when you use a cell phone and drive," writes David Strayer, a psychology professor and the study's lead author. "The level of impairment is very similar." .....

Just couldn't pass that one up, especially since I know a student that wrapped his car 'round a light pole while having a screaming phone argument with his parents.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Ok, thanks for the advice, guys! AntiqueCollector, I have studied up on it a fair amount. I am of legal age to carry and own (I'm 20 and I live in PA). However, I'll have to unload and lock the ammo away in the glove compartment when driving if I start carrying before I can get my LTCF. That'll be kind of a pain since my future carry piece is a revolver, but I guess that's what speedloaders are for.

~Dale

Doesn't PA require all handgun sales go through an FFL? Well if you were legally given the gun by a parent I guess that's probably legal (double check). Don't carry in Philadelphia, a license to carry is required there no matter if it's open or not. Elsewhere in PA, open carry is legal without a license except for off limits places. Some areas' police departments will harass people, go to opencarry.org's forums to see details, but stand up for your rights...there's plenty of caselaw on the side of open carriers in PA.

 

[Surat]

most police would discourage you from carrying, period

Don't over generalize. This all depends on where you are at. I'm all for more law abiding citizens carrying/owning. Keeps me from having to work as hard and I can go write more trafic tickets so we can get more grant moneyfrom Feds & state.

Personally I have no issue with OC, but then OC and gun laws in general get a trifle odd in NC.

For example, you can open carry all day long. I personally am not gonna hassle someone unless their behavior registers as anomalous or suspicious. What constitutes that depends on the situation, time and location.

Wave the thing around and do it in such a maner as to scare the straights and it's considered "Armed to the Terror of the Public." By the way a baseball bat or samuri sword falls into this law as well. . .

Fire a BB gun or paint ball gun in the city limits where I work and it's a violation of city ordinance and gets you a ticket (BB guns at neighbors cats, paint balls at cars) or a trip to the magistrate (firing actual weapons in the city).

We also have city ordinances on panhandlers and charity groups collecting money at intersections, so don't feel bad.

I think a lot of this comes down to place and politics. We are strongly conservative down in this area (Republican Sheriff, town & city counsels etc.). Never lived or been there but I'm guessing PA is a trifle more “blue” in addition to being full of yankees.

 

[Mr. D]

That is correct, all handgun sales must go through an FFL. However, anyone can give an 18-20 year old a handgun. In fact, parents and grandparents can give handguns to children or grandchildren without incurring any paper work whatsoever. My Dad gave me both of my handguns.

~Dale

 

[Tacbandit]

Quote:

"I suggest looking over at opencarry.org's Arizona page and the Arizona Revised Statutes Title 13 Chapter 31"




Jesse L...Appreciate the info...
Thanks for the input, and the insight...

 

[stevemis]

The timing on this thread, at least for me, is perfect.

I came across a wholly fantastic thread "The Open Carry Argument" on THR a while back. OC came up last week and I showed my wife that thread. I think Mainsail's argument about Open Carry being an active deterrent and concealed carry being a passive solution struck home.

Last night, she approached me with an idea. Let me preface this by explaining how much I despise shopping for clothes. I really, really, really despise it. My wife had an offer... if I came with her to Kohl's to pick out some new threads (for me), she wouldn't give me a hard time if I wanted to OC there. She made it clear that we also needed to get some groceries on the way home as well, but her offer only applied to Kohl's.

So... we're in Kohl's (a regional department store) and I've got my Dan Wesson CBOB untucked in a Galco Yaqui. If anyone noticed my 1911, it certainly didn't bother them. My wife was paying extra attention to the sheeple customers and employees milling about and she didn't see any long stares or double-takes... certainly nobody ran the other direction screaming "OH MY GOD HE HAS A GUN!".

It was completely uneventful. I will say that OC is a whole lot more comfortable than CC ever was.

When we started up the car, it started acting funny. My wife was just at the dealer with the problem earlier in the week and they couldn't find anything wrong. Since the dealer's service department closes at 11pm, we decided to head over there and show them the problem first hand. My wife asked me to go back to concealed and I said "naah!". This dealership is huge.. there's waiting rooms all over the place, big screen TV's in some spots, a break room with coffee and soda. Service employees, sales employees, service customers and sales customers were all over. Nobody looked at me twice until the sales manager walked by while I was smoking outside. He said "Sir, that is a gorgeous .45". We talked about firearms and hunting for about 5 minutes and then he got a page and had to get back to work.

I guess at this point, my wife was pretty comfortable with my OC. We were all over WalMart .. again, no funny looks and no trouble of any sort.

I agree with others who say this is a right we will lose if we don't use it. The VCDL seems to also agree. They organize OC events like council meetings, picnics and restaurant get-togethers. Initially, this kind of organized en-mass and "in your face" OC bothered me.. until I realized that it works and figured out why they're doing it.

Remember, the antis have rallies and "die-ins" where they slather each other in ketchup and lie down to play dead. The media eats this cr@p up and they get lots of free publicity. The VCDL's response is to gather law-abiding, peaceful gun owners together to let them carry.. The VCDL even gets face time with reporters at these events. This is the polar opposite of the anti's technique and it appears to be working well. Virginia is a great place to carry openly for a reason.

I applaud the efforts of the VCDL and it's members. I wish we had a like-minded group here in North Carolina.

 

[jahwarrior]

stevemis said: Nobody looked at me twice until the sales manager walked by while I was smoking outside.

ack! smoking! in public! whatsamattawityou?!? don't you know that's offensive, and scares people? if you want to smoke in private, fine! we don't need to see it! it's people like you that are going to ruin it for all of us discreet smokers.....

 

[MT GUNNY]

Our #1 threat is people that don't know about Gun ownership. I cant think of a better way to spread the word than OC. It will show that we are law abiding citizens, and show that guns just don't Go off killing people.

Elza post#7 That is the right attitude!!

 

[dmazur]

I'm completely in favor of OC, CC, whatever is legal.

And, if you are an "OC person", be aware that it is remotely possible that you are a target by BG's who might want to either 1) take your weapon, or 2) neutralize you first, then continue with their robbery/whatever.

I'm not starting a OC/CC argument, just suggesting that situational awareness might be even more important if you choose to OC. In most situations, nothing is happening to "raise your hackles", so it's a good thing to do.

I've read quite a bit about OC/CC, and it seems to start violent arguments, but I'm not sure I've read a "just be a little more aware" caution...so I thought I'd toss one out there.

BTW, my pet peeve is the "you can carry, except _____ <location>". That location isn't any safer than anywhere else, so why should I give up my right to self defense there? Well, it's a federal building, so that's different. Well, it's private property, so that's different. This is off-topic, but it is what I'm trying to fight for, through legal channels.

I agree 100% that we need to be united. We don't need a "who needs EBR's" type problem derailing self defense rights.

Who knows. Maybe, years from now, guns will be commonplace and some of the more nonsensical anti-gun laws will have been repealed. Maybe OC is a path to that, as others have said, by increasing public awareness that "normal" people carry guns. CC protects you, but there is no positive publicity because the carry is, well, concealed.

I might have to try that out, in my "anomalous OC state".