A magnificent example of why not to use "liberal" as an attack/insult

[Field Tester]

If you're voting for liberal Democrats you're not supporting the second amendment.

That's not true at all. There are several politicians who are pro 2nd and have a "D" next to their name. Check out the NRA rankings sometime.

Fact is that every single president since Kennedy has been in favor of gun control in some form, regardless of party affiliation. Even several Republicans running against the Democrats who won the office had supported such legislation.

Right now in California's Gov race the D may be a better option than the R.

We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot and alienating ourselves. We make the choice easier for the other side to poach those sitting on the fence on the issue, as well as those possibly considering altering their stance on gun control.

As someone who was previously middle of the road on politics, I can tell you I was pushed to the Libertarian Party because of the disgraceful mudslinging by both parties. I made my mind up because of the issues, but I started looking that way because of the tactics being discussed in this thread.

Please give it some honest thought. But thank you for your views otherwise.

 

[Nom de Forum]

What a ludicrous view. You actually seem to enjoy offending others and then make the claim that those you offend are wrong to be offended. What bull manure -- bull manure that is all too prevalent in the pro-2A camp.

Roger that!

 

[Cee Zee]

There are several politicians who are pro 2nd and have a "D" next to their name.

The whole state of West Virginia is a big example of why what you're saying is right. The state is hugely pro-union which of course qualifies as Democrat and liberal in the minds of most. But WV is also a huge state for hunters. All those coal miners who live in the mountains largely stay there because they like being able to hunt off their back porch.

The politicians from that state are largely Democrat although there have been some changes in recent years. Still it's largely a blue state when it comes to politics. Have we forgotten how Gov. Manchin famously shot a copy of a bill showing his opposition to a Democrat staple, climate change. At the same time he was trying to sway voters who are NRA members in his campaign to fill the seat left open by Senator Byrd. Yes he later supported the ban on "assault rifles" after Sandy Hook but still that was him trying to appeal to the NRA members in his state. And it hurt him politically to come out in favor of gun control too.

He represents a whole state of people who are left leaning in many ways and solid gun rights supporters too. It isn't like there are just a few of these people. There are millions of them. We can't afford to make the mistake Manchin did. Don't insult your base. WV union types are also hunters so they can be swayed to support pro-gun causes. We can't forget that. There are lots of people like that. They support different "liberal" causes but they also support gun rights. Insulting them is no way to get them to make our issue the more important issue when they pull that voting booth lever (or punch that hole or whatever these days).

 

[we are not amused]

Of course not. You're either missing the point or trying to make a straw man argument. Or both.

Yes, if a liberal is anti-gun, then that's his fault. If most liberal candidates are anti-gun, then that's their fault. But the whole point is we shouldn't be encouraging liberals to be anti-gun by telling them they're not welcome among us pro-2A supporters, that's all.


Nobody is saying that we gun-rights supporters are at fault for the anti-gun leaning of the Democratic Party. But what we're saying is that we shouldn't encourage the Democratic Party to continue to be anti-gun, because when we alienate liberals, that's what we're doing.

So you are saying, it is our fault after all!

Look, I have nothing against Liberals on this site who support the Second Amendment for everyone, not just a favored few.

I have never said they aren't welcome on this site, but if they attack me or my positions, they had better be prepared to defend their position.

If they don't like being associated with anti-gun Liberals, then they need to separate themselves from them. Form a new party, or work to change their own. I don't see a lot push back from pro-gun Liberals in the Democrat Party against the gun banners.

I do have a solution!
Come over to the Dark Side!
We have guns!

 

[Theohazard]

So you are saying, it is our fault after all!

If you insist on using a straw-man argument, then there's really no point in discussing this further.

 

[we are not amused]

I've already offered a few suggestions that are easy and make a good starting point: We should stop conflating "liberal" with "anti-gun"; we should stop mixing 2A politics in with other politics and embrace anyone who supports the 2A cause, even liberals; and we should stop framing this as a partisan issue that only conservative Republicans support.

Ultimately, candidates reflect their voters; when their voters aren't as anti-gun then the candidates won't be either.

I am not going to support a "Liberal" just because he is pro-gun, if there is a superior Conservative candidate who is also pro-gun.

And I have voted for a Democrat who was pro-gun over a lousy so-called "moderate" Republican who was anti-gun in State elections, and would consider doing so in Federal elections, if the Democrats ever ran one who was pro-gun. But not if he was up against a pro-gun Conservative. I wouldn't expect a Liberal pro-gun person, (the few that there are) to vote for a pro-gun Conservative, if he had a pro-gun Liberal he could vote for.
The problem is, a Liberal wouldn't even consider voting for a pro-gun Conservative against a anti-gun Liberal. About the best we could hope for is that they stay home and don't vote at all. That is not helping much. Pro-gun Liberals need to take the RKBA seriously, if they want to be taken seriously.

 

[X-Rap]

So we continue with the carrot on the stick. If we would just embrace our Liberal brothers the gun control issue would disappear.
Does anyone really believe that?
The WV reference is a good one since it is the Liberals that wish to shut down the coal mines that sustain the people of those hills but they keep blindly pulling the lever until not only their guns are gone but so is their livelihood.
It has been well pointed out that there is plenty of discourse on the Conservative side of politics but one hardly hears a peep as the party line is pulled along on the left.
Show me and maybe I'll believe.

 

[OilyPablo]

There are several politicians who are pro 2nd and have a "D" next to their name.

I think you nailed it right there. Of course not all Democrats are liberal. We aren't talking about Democrats. We are talking about how hard core liberals are hardened hoplophobes.

 

[we are not amused]

What a ludicrous view. You actually seem to enjoy offending others and then make the claim that those you offend are wrong to be offended. What bull manure -- bull manure that is all too prevalent in the pro-2A camp.

I am offended that you are offended! Your offence offends me!
ROFLOL!!

 

[we are not amused]

If you insist on using a straw-man argument, then there's really no point in discussing this further.

If you keep saying that it is the fault of pro-gun people that Liberals are anti-gun, then you are right, there is nothing further to discuss.

 

[we are not amused]

So we continue with the carrot on the stick. If we would just embrace our Liberal brothers the gun control issue would disappear.
Does anyone really believe that?

Evidently many do!

At least among the Left.
If we would just kiss and make up, everything would be "Rainbows and Unicorns", and all Liberals would give up their gun control efforts, after all, they only support them because we mean old gun rights supporters oppose them..

 

[Wanderling]

Most thinking people don't believe in a pre-canned set of ideas.

I proudly hold many liberal views, and many conservative views.

Besides, the terms are just too vague and too broad.

After all, many Democrats are not really liberal and many Republicans are not really conservative. Both parties are not even proper parties, but rather two coalitions of people with sometimes overlapping but not necessarily the same views.

 

[oneounceload]

Which is why you are a Libertarian and don't know it!

 

[Nom de Forum]

Which is why you are a Libertarian and don't know it!

Yeah right, no Libertarians have a pre-canned set of ideas! Many seem to have pre-bound sets of ideas with the following titles: The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, etc.

Libertarianism: The law of the jungle applied to human society. Everyone has the utmost freedom until someone decides their right to freedom negates yours and devours you.

Libertarianism: A deceptive step toward Might Makes Right Feudalism.

By the way, I am a recovering Libertarian celebrating 38 years of reclaimed sanity since I stopped being a card carrying member of the Party.

 

[Kynoch]

So we continue with the carrot on the stick. If we would just embrace our Liberal brothers the gun control issue would disappear. Does anyone really believe that?
The WV reference is a good one since it is the Liberals that wish to shut down the coal mines that sustain the people of those hills but they keep blindly pulling the lever until not only their guns are gone but so is their livelihood.
It has been well pointed out that there is plenty of discourse on the Conservative side of politics but one hardly hears a peep as the party line is pulled along on the left.
Show me and maybe I'll believe.

Immediately recognizable as a straw dog "argument."

 

[jerkface11]

So who are the pro-gun liberal politicians that pro-gun liberal voters can support?

 

[Kynoch]

Is everyone else here aware that not using the term "liberal" as a pejorative does not equate to supporting "liberal" politicians?

Many here seem to miss that fact. Or they ignore it so that they can attempt to make their own "argument."

 

[Kynoch]

So who are the pro-gun liberal politicians that pro-gun liberal voters can support?

There you go again. The thread is about NOT using "liberal" as a pejorative. It's not about politicians, liberal or otherwise.

Some here literally seem to be trying to sell their belief that because most (but certainly not all) "liberal" politicians tend to be pro-gun control, that it gives them license to use "liberal" as a slur. Absolute bull manure.

Stop trying to conflate the two!

 

[jerkface11]

If the idea is that you can be liberal and still be pro-gun then there must be pro-gun liberals for you to vote for. Otherwise you have no point.

 

[OilyPablo]

Bad example: Those derned liberals are trying to pass another stupid gun law.

Good Example: Misguided sheep are again attempting through the legislative process to hinder my 2nd Amendment civil rights.

 

[Nom de Forum]

So who are the pro-gun liberal politicians that pro-gun liberal voters can support?

Define pro-gun. Because countless times I have seen pro-gun people who are not considered pro-gun enough by other people. Are you pro-gun if you support the right to own automatic weapons? Because that is not pro-gun enough for some pro-gun people. Perhaps a better question is who are the politicians who are absolutely anti-gun to the point of banning all civilian ownership of firearms. Any politician not one of those is standing a step toward pro-gun ownership and has the potential to take many more steps in that direction if swayed in a civil, rational debate. You can't have a civil debate if you completely alienate someone with insults.

 

[Nom de Forum]

If the idea is that you can be liberal and still be pro-gun then there must be pro-gun liberals for you to vote for. Otherwise you have no point.

Most people know that answering your question with names will result in a litany of reasons for why they are not pro-gun because they are not pro-gun enough. Someone with more patience for that than me will have to supply your answer.

 

[jerkface11]

Anti-gun= supports stricter gun laws
Pro-gun= supports more lenient gun laws
Ambivalent= neither one

 

[Nom de Forum]

Anti-gun= supports stricter gun laws
Pro-gun= supports more lenient gun laws
Ambivalent= neither one

Wow! Well what do you know? I'm an anti-gunner, at least according to you. This thread is turning into :banghead:!

Wow! Well what do you know? I'm a pro-gunner, at least according to you. This thread is turning into :banghead:!

 

[jerkface11]

You support stricter gun laws but think you're not anti-gun?