A Man Has To Know His Limitations

[Hummer70]

Everyone has opinions on the best sight for this or that and I would suspect that most folks are interested in fast target acquisition in hunting/survival type applications but how do you know what is really the fastest for you?

At Aberdeen Proving Ground such is determined on the “M” Range where there are three fans of targets in front of the shooter at 25, 50 and 100 yards. There are like 15 targets at each line and they are spread out in about 120 degree fans.


The shooter stands at ready position and controller activates the computer progam which raises targets independently and randomly. For instance your first shot might be at 10:00 o’clock at 50 yards and second target at 1:00 at 100 yards and third target be at 2:00 at 25 yards.


Every shooter gets the same number of targets and the computer picks them randomly so shooters waiting to come up observing the test cannot pre plot which target comes first, second etc. When the target rises the timer starts and the timer stops when the sensors indicate a bullet has passed through the target.


When finished the computer prints out the ranges and times taken to get a first shot through the target thusly misses don’t count so the value of a candidate sight system can be realistically evaluated across a large cross section of shooters.


You can get 100% hits and come in last because your time to engage is longer as the average time is calculated at each range.


Obviously this range is out of the ballpark due to its cost and maintenance (or I would have had my own haha) but there is another way to arrive at the knowledge desired which is done with a shot timer.


I have a R U Ready timer (there are others) and you turn it on or someone else turns it on and three seconds later a “BEEP” sounds which starts the timer and the time stops when the shot is fired. I do like a ten shot string at 25 yards and 50 yards recording the time to engage and fire and get a average time to engage.


Then I go down and count the hits in the target and divide the number of hits into the time.


For a target I get a stack of 6” flimsy paper plates at Wally World and staple them up at 25 yards and 50 yards. Realistically your target on most medium game is about 6” thusly you can evaluate your skill and the usefulness of a candidate sight system and have firm data and you have determined the fastest pointing sight system for a given range.


If you go to 75 yards you will most likely find you need a longer time to get off your first shot. At 100 yards it will be longer.

You will quickly realize in order to get 100% first shot hits changes will need to be made like assuming the prone position and using a sling/bipod or some kind of support.


The title of this thread is from a Clint Eastwood line in one Dirty Harry movie, “A man has got to know his limitations.” A speed timer will quickly give you a realistic firm data base of your limitations and the enhancement of or detriment of a given sight system.


http://www.frfrogspad.com/courses.htm will give you some realistic courses of fire designed to measure your ability with rifle and handgunswithout expending large amounts of ammo. I have talked to the Friar and he explained they have competitions and there are some very fast shooters in their competitions. 1.5 seconds sounds like a long time to get off a shot at 25 yards but when you try it you will find that it is much harder than it sounds.

 

[Hokkmike]

Great quote.

That kind of range would make me nervous.

I shoot to relax.

 

[Sam1911]

With almost any shooting discipline, once you have the principles of marksmanship established, the next step is learning to apply those principles in the least time required to make an acceptable hit. Almost nothing you'd shoot at in the real world gives you plenty of warning and an unlimited time window to make that shot, some things need more than one shot, and sometimes there are more than one thing that need to be shot, quickly.

Speed is fine, accuracy is final, BUT, a marginal shot in time is better than a GREAT shot too late.

You never really understand your own abilities, and where you need improvement, until you're using a shot timer. Just about the single greatest training tool ever invented!

 

[David E]

A shot timer can be an extremely useful and revealing training tool.

I'm amazed at the speed some people dismiss shot timers as not having any value at all.

 

[WardenWolf]

I'd love to shoot at a range like that. I think I'd do pretty good, because I've practiced flipping the rifle to my shoulder. With my AKs I can do it and instantly be looking perfectly down the sights. I've already prepared myself for that kind of shooting, in a way, even though I've never done it.

 

[Warp]

I'd LOVE to have access to a range like that.

But you are absolutely correct in that proper application of a shot timer, and a range where you can get some shooting time when other's shots won't trip your timer, can accomplish a LOT.

I think far too few people do things on the clock. It seems that hardly anybody who carries does draw/fire drills with a shot timer, for example.

I finally got a shot timer a few months ago. It is a most excellent tool.

 

[David E]

I think I'd do pretty good, because I've practiced flipping the rifle to my shoulder. With my AKs I can do it and instantly be looking perfectly down the sights.

With a shot timer, you could find out how "instantly" you can really do that.

I've already prepared myself for that kind of shooting, in a way, even though I've never done it.

You know that sounds rather vain, right?

 

[wally]

My shot timer proves that about half my time downing six steel plates at 10 yards is getting the first shot off from the draw.

 

[Hummer70]

Sam1911 writes: "With almost any shooting discipline, once you have the principles of marksmanship established, the next step is learning to apply those principles in the least time required to make an acceptable hit. Almost nothing you'd shoot at in the real world gives you plenty of warning and an unlimited time window to make that shot, some things need more than one shot, and sometimes there are more than one thing that need to be shot, quickly.

Speed is fine, accuracy is final, BUT, a marginal shot in time is better than a GREAT shot too late.

You never really understand your own abilities, and where you need improvement, until you're using a shot timer. Just about the single greatest training tool ever invented! "

Very well stated Sir. When I taught concealed carry for state permits I gave a three hour lecture on weapons plus and minus factors and one of my points was a non lethal hit from a adequately powered center fire rifle is far more effective than a lethal hit from a handgun.

Case in point the FBI shootings in Miami circa 1986 resulted in a restricted attendance briefing given by the lead crime scene investigator at the Fed Law Enf Tng Ctr at Glynco where I was stationed which was conducted at two levels for lack of a better description. One to be used for training purposes and the other was "the rest of the story" which was very revealing that I attended.

The shooting involved 8 FBI agents and two bad guys. When it was over two agents were killed and five more were wounded. On bad guy made all the shots hitting all the agents. The only thing the other bad buy hit was a radiator with a shotgun blast.

There was one statement they said that has stuck with me for years which basically said, "No FBI agent that took a hit anywhere from the Ruger Mini 14 fired another shot." whick directly supports Sam1911's opinion and mine.

They made another statement that the first shot fired in the encounter was delivered with a 115 Gr. Winchester Silver Tip and it was fired from a S&W 9MM auto and the shot was perfectly placed through the heart of the bad guy as he climbed out the window of his wrecked car he continued to operate very effectively though he was losing blood rapidly in spurts out his left side.

After taking a lethal shot from the 9MM the bad guy got a Mini 14 going and shot seven of the eight agents present. I later talked to a surgeon who was closely involved with the aftermath of this shooting and he said if the bad guy had been shot in the operating room on a operating table with full surgical team dressed out and ready to go he would not have been savable.

After the briefing I walked up and basically asked, "OK we have cars here, here, here......." He agreed and next I asked him which of the gov't cars had the M16s in the trunk?

I immediately got a "deer caught in the headlights look" from him and he quietly said, "How do you know that" I told him I knew that every FBI agent issued a 9MM in those days was also issued a M16 with a device which prevented it from being fired full auto. It was very clear from his reaction that they did not want that information revealed.

Unfortunately the good guys violated the Third Great Truth. The Great Truths are:

1. Never tug on Superman's Cape.
2. Never take a knife to a gun fight.
3. Never ever take a handgun to a rifle match.

I was constantly telling my people who wanted me to recommend issuance of full auto weapons to all agents so that they had fire power like Nam this:

"If you ever run up on a rifleman that knows what he is doing you will have a bad day." Tragically our FBI brothers found him.

One of the guys in the Army Small Cal Lab had a very good definition of firepower. "More misses per minute." He was formerly on the Marine Corps Rifle Team at Quantico.

I have a good friend in Augusta, Ga. who has had 47 surgeries to remove shrapnel he received while attending the Battle of the Bulge party and he was right in the middle of a big event. Two medics were killed working on him in the field, another killed working on him in the aide station and a fourth killed as he backed a medevac ambulance up to the door of the house the aide station was set up in.

This guy was a sniper and saw lots of combat and had lots of visits to VA hospitals and I asked him," In all your combat and trips to VA hospitals did you ever see anyone that took a solid thoracic cavity hit from a 30.06 or 8MM Mauser and went home to talk about it?" He said emphatically , "NO"

His longest shot was 700 yards and the German dropped like a brick and never moved. He got the mortar guys who had a rangefinder to range him as his body on clearly visible on an adjacent hill throughout the day. He hit him with a 30.06 tracer round from the standing position which he freely admits was a luck shot.

I have heard numerous stories out of Iraq and AFG about bad guys taking multiple hits from ARs and still going. I had one Marine tell me there was one woman firing an AK who took seven hits from M16s from 200 yards before she was stopped.

I saw a --deleted-- on a computer clip recorded from what appeared to be about forty feet from the side who was lining up a RPG for a shot at Marines down the street. He had assumed a kneeling position and you can see him receive two shots and he turned to look back at the cameraman with a questioning look on his face when the third shot went through the cranial vault and he dropped.

Has anyone heard of a --deleted-- taking a solid 7.62 thoracic cavity hit and continuing to fight?

One officer in my agency took a 8MM Mauser hunting bullet shot through a door hitting him lower right abdomen and survived that even though it was maybe 30 minutes before he could be removed from the walkway as the scene was not secure. He basically said he was out of it and if the shooter had walked out on the front porch to finish him he could have done nothing to prevent it.





http://www.bing.com/search?q=fbi+sh...&pq=fbi+shooting+miami+1986&sc=1-23&sp=-1&sk=

 

[loose noose]

When my students shoot with a timer, there initial scores dip way down, such is the old adage, "when you do become engaged in an actual shootout, you will be only half as competent as when you practice".

 

[Hummer70]

I am not surprised. They started using them at FLETC about 88 I think and it was a hoot to watch the students when put under stress.

I came up with a qualification course for ARs. To make sure it was realistic I shot the course with a bolt action rifle and I could qualify. I could have cleaned it except for the last course of fire which was 10 rounds in 10 seconds at full size silhouette at 25 yards. I could get off four to five shots with a bolt gun and with a AR it was a piece of cake to let loose ten in ten but you should have heard the complaints.

I also had them assume prone position to engage full silhouette at 50 yards. They did not like that either. I think that was ten in 30 seconds. Oh no They wanted to do the whole QUAL from the John Wayne position.

Apparently they never heard:

Never stand when you can sit.

Never sit when you can lay

E C Crossman wrote some interesting books in 30s about service rifle shooting with Springfield.

He said there was a match at Camp Perry where the targets were run up for five seconds and you were at 200 yards with a 1903 rifle, safety on at trail arms. As soon as you saw the targets move you could move and when targets got to top of travel they only remained exposed for five seconds and you could engage them any way you desired.

He said it didn't take long for everyone to figure out they could hit the deck and fire from prone and shoot consistant Vs and 5s without even using the sling for support.

This could be adapted with a R U Ready timer and any shot after seven seconds would be considered a miss.

I have a copy of a rather thick report from Aberdeen that evaluated the different type of sights and how long it took to engage a target at 100 yards and get off a shot with the different sights. The report is near on two inches thick and my friend was the Test Director and first thing out the report says more work needs to be done in that field.

He utilized NRA Master Class shooters for the series and a large number of rounds were fired as they had about six shooters and six different weapons.