A New thread about Tokarevs (TT-30 and variants)

[Shadow 7D]

A question was posed about the safeties on TT-33, the original safety was the half cock, which locked the trigger and slide to undo the safety you have to fully cock the hammer

Of the two import safeties I have seen was the Yugo sear safety, which blocks the sear from moving, not the hammer or hammer sear engagement, and the trigger bump knob, the rommy/polish import safety. I have to say, I really don't like a little lever that engages a weld (look at it, it really is just a nasty weld blob)

Safe is half cock, it ensures the gun is unloaded, and if you keep the gun loaded and half cock you are two things, braver than me, and well engaging in a pointless, dangerous activity.

Other variants have a actual manual safety, such as the Zastava (yugo, now Serb) commercial variant, as well as the Norinco 213, and the Tokegypt. I have the M88 zastava, and I haven't taken the safety apart, but do know that in engages something in the trigger group, and that the trigger group doesn't have a half cock.


Now this is neither an old thread, or to the best of my knowledge a retread of a answered thread.

Please add you knowledge of the Tok here. can you explain the differences between the different commercial and military models, explain the different commercial safeties,

And can anybody give something definitive about the hard/binding trigger some people seem to experience on the Yugo, is it a dirty trigger group or the safety binding up?

 

[h2o4ever]

not trying to change the subject but i see you say you have a zastava m88 and just wanted to know if yours has a 20 lb. trigger pull? thanks h2o

 

[Shadow 7D]

no, great trigger, maybe 5 pounds? like my other toks,

 

[wally]

Question is moot for the range.

If you plan to carry it, why not chamber empty on half cock and see if it ever drops.

I've heard claims that the Red Army never had a documented instance of the half-cock safety fail, but I've no way to verify or refer to primary sources.
With most designs, half cock is definitely not safe and is only a secondary fail-safe for the primary safety, but the Tokarev has a very meaty half cock notch which also locks the slide (as does the 1911 thumb safety.

If for some reason I were to carry mine, it would be chamber loaded on half-cock. Lowering the hammer is no big deal if you use the proper technique where your off-hand thumb acts as a hammer block between the hammer face and slide. Use the search its been described in great detail in past threads about "de-cocking" the CZ75 to carry it DA/SA.

 

[Shadow 7D]

OK, and how is that different than just doing an isreali draw?

 

[Vonderek]

The Israeli draw you need both hands

 

[azyogi]

Not sure what model my Zastava is, 9mm, 9 round mag, safety on slide has a cam that covers the back of the firing pin, and locks the disconnecter which in turn binds the sear. Magazine safety locks trigger bar. Recoil spring is captured and pinned to the guide rod. Imported by American Arms, Inc N. KC. MO. The other side of the slide has two Zastava cartuches on either side of two lines, upper reads TT Cal 9mm PARA, lower line MADE IN YUGOSLAVIA. Serial # 108** Bought in 89 or 90 I did have a 213 at one point and compared it to the Z. The Z mags worked in the 213 just stuck out the bottom a bit. The 213 mags were too short to work in the Z, as were the grip panels. Hammer groups, trigger return leaf spring, barrels, recoil spring assy, and slide assy, all interchanged. Does that help?

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, was it shorter than the standard size Tok, or same size?
I have a Zas M88, many of the same features you describe, the barrel only has 2 locking rings and the grip is shortened, I believe it only holds 8, here are some links

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/
http://www.eaacorp.com/zastava-m88-TP.html

 

[azyogi]

Same length, not seen anything like it since the 90's

 

[Shadow 7D]

Wow, cool, you are lucky, I wish I had it, it's on their website as the m70A, basically a 9mm version of the M57. The M88 is shorter, looks like it's built from a m70 (.32) frame, nice gun on the whole, not the prettiest or nicest, but I really like it.


Zastava has a higher line with custom finishes, wood etc.

 

[Mastiff]

Shadow, you forgot to mention that the import Yugo M57 safety also blocks the slide. I've had other pistols that worked the same way (Star Super A and Ballister-Molina). I think my Argie Hi-power works the same way also. When the Yugo M-57's came in I switched to these as my carry pistol.
I never had any problem carrying the Tok with one in the chamber and on the half cock. I just practiced until fully cocking the hammer was automatic on the draw.

 

[hardworker]

The red army never documented a lot of things, like what happened to men who retreated, or non-communists in eastern europe. Usually, I'm all for lack of anecdotal evidence being proof of something being a non-issue, but not in the case of the russians.

 

[Onmilo]

You should never carry any semi auto external hammer pistol chamber loaded and at half cock.
The half cock notch has always been designed as a safety measure, never as an intended safety.

The Tokarev was never designed with an active safety. The half cock notch is there to prevent the gun from accidently firing should ones thumb slip from the hammer while cocking or in the event of a full cock sear notch failure.

Dropping or hammer impacting the gun can and has invited the accidental discharge of many different manufacturers weapons, not just Tokarev.

The bad part is that when the half cock notch shears, it is usually because the firearm lands on the hammer, shearing the half cock notch and dropping the hammer with enough force to detonate the loaded cartridge.

Think about this for a second, if the hammer is hitting the ground, what direction is the muzzle pointing?

Because most pistols use an inertial driven firing pin, pressure from the hammer weight resting against against the pin will prevent the firing pin from moving in the tunnel with enough force to detonate a chambered cartridge.
In such, it is FAR safer to have the hammer down on a loaded chamber than to have the gun set at half cock.

Be safe, Getting shot with your own gun isn't fun and can be a fatal one time event.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Gee, and here I thought it was part of the Tokarev design, and that full down was MORE dangerous, and more likely to fire if dropped.

 

[stoney1666]

how about full cock on an empty chamber, makes it easier to work the slide

 

[Shadow 7D]

No, not unless your hammer pack is broken, half cock LOCKS the slide

 

[KodiakBeer]

 

[jon_in_wv]

The red army never documented a lot of things, like what happened to men who retreated, or non-communists in eastern europe. Usually, I'm all for lack of anecdotal evidence being proof of something being a non-issue, but not in the case of the russians.

I get tired of hearing, "there isn' ONE documented case". It usually means, "I haven't looked and no one has SHOWED it to me" or there just isn't documentation of such things. Is anyone here really a Russian firearms scholar and has poured over ALL the Russian firearms documentation available and can really say there isn't any pertaining to this? I would bet there could be a TON of documentation and folks wouldn't know any different either way.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Russian firearms site:

The Tokarev TT is a short recoil operated, locked breech pistol. It uses Browning swinging link system, borrowed from the Colt M1911 pistol, modified to simplify production. The single action trigger had no safeties, other than disconnector to prevent out-of-battery fire, and a half-cock notch on the hammer. The only safe way to carry TT was to always have an empty chamber.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg20-e.htm

 

[batjka]

With all this talk about half-cock, don't forget that TT was DESIGNED to rely on it for safety. It is not your half-cock on 1911. One cannot measure a TT-33 by today's standards and in 1930s the pistol was considered totally safe when carried in this manner.

Also don't forget that the author of the Russian gun site hangs out on this board and picks up his knowledge from the board's contributors. So he is as prejudiced as anyone here about TT's safety.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Lets remind everybody that safety is in the mind of the beholder, and that is the end of it (think about it)


Great gun, and I would love to see more info about the different varieties, not just the safety issues

 

[SeanB23]

I've seen people refer to other designs such as the 1911 over and over and over again when discussing the half-cock of the TT-33. Most of these people have never had a TT-33 apart, or they would have noticed something:

The spring/sear/hammer assemblies are totally different designs on the two pistols.

The TT-33 is not a 1911.

The 1911 is not a TT-33.

The TT-33 was not designed by Browning, even though some of his ideas were incorporated (stolen) by Tokarev.

I've been scouring the internet quite a bit lately, looking for photos or stories about a failed or sheared TT-33 half-cock notch.

To my knowledge, if it has ever happened, it has never...not once...been documented in a form that made it on to the 'net.

What we need are two things:

1) A thorough drop test of a TT-33 to see if it is even possible to get the half-cock notch to fail from dropping the pistol. My guess is that it would take repeated blows from a large hammer to get this to happen.

2) A Russian speaking person to comb through old Soviet archives on their primary service pistol, made by the millions, to see if the Soviet military ever documented a half-cock notch shearing off, and what caused this to happen. The Soviets might have been brutal barbarians in some ways, but they also had a large and somewhat sophisticated military, which happened to win WW2. Surely they conducted torture tests on their primary sidearm to figure out it's few weak spots, and documented in painstaking detail how and where it could fail.

I'm not saying it's not possible to shear off a TT-33 half cock notch, or that it hasn't happened. I've simply never once seen evidence of it, and having examined the design of the two I own in some detail, I think it would take a genuine, concerted effort on someone's part to bring this failure about.

 

[harmon rabb]

Anyone know where to buy a takedown clip for a TT-33? I have a broken one and need a new one.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Try Egunparts or sarco or damn it, went blank

 

[harmon rabb]

Damnit. e-gunparts has it, but they're sold out