A Paramedic student trying to Arm himself

[AethelstanAegen]

It sounds like you're big on combloc firearms, but don't want a WASR 10 and find an Arsenal too expensive, try looking at some of the many other AK options out there. I've been very impressed with my Interarms assembled WZ. 88 (Polish Tantal). They assemble just about any AK configuration you could hope for and I have no complaints about the quality of mine with prices in the $5-600 range (so right about the middle between a WASR and an Arsenal rifle). You can also look at something assembled by TGI, I have a TGI assembled AMD-65 which cost no more than a WASR-10 and mine has functioned perfectly. The AMD-65 has a more traditional black finish (like the Arsenals) but I personally prefer the parkerized finish on my Interarms rifle as it seems to hold up a bit better to dings, idiot marks and love taps. Overall the quality on my Interarms build was a little higher than the AMD-65 and I'm very glad I bought one from them instead of investing another $200 for an Arsenal (for my needs, I don't think it would have gained me anything and that was several hundred more rounds I could buy for practice and fun). Since you already have an SKS, perhaps choosing something in 7.62x39 makes a lot of sense as you can stockpile for both at the same time...that said I bought my WZ.88 because I can shoot 5.45x39 all week and not break the bank. I'd recommend going to several LGSs and seeing many different rifles to see what appeals to you.

 

[valnar]

I'm not sure of your budget, but if you are dying for another gun in 7.62x39, my favorite of all is the Vz.58. If you aren't married to getting an AK47, this is THE one to buy.

 

[Stacer]

Once you get into the paramedic portion of class, you aren't going to have time for shooting anyway. I haven't been able to get out in about a month, and we just started cardiology.

 

[MachIVshooter]

1. Reliable, this is why i went to the SKS and AK and not the AR 15. Yes the AR-15 is a beautiful weapon, but it is not for me. i like my guns simple and low maintenance. Just in case i can't afford to lay down a tarp and dissasemble all those tiny, amazingly machined AR parts.

This has already been addressed, and it seems that you've "seen the light". In my own experience, having owned 2 SKS's, 3 AK's and 2 AR's, the AR's were superior in every respect, reliability included.

2. Cheap to shoot!, Also why i went the Ak/SKS route!

cheap 5.56x45mm is pretty close to cheap 7.62x39mm. IMO, it's really a non-issue in deciding between the two. Maybe 10 years ago, when you could buy a case of 7.62 for under $100 any day of the week, but those days are long gone. Right now, Wolf 7.62x39mm is exactly the same price as Wolf 5.56x45mm at $229/case delivered from ammoman.com (usually the cheapest source).

3. Please no Hand gun suggestions. I'd love to have a Glock 17, .357 wheel gun, or that super great handling German pistol you have. But i'm under 21 and can't buy it or its ammo.

Does your state have a specific prohibition on people under 21 owning a handgun? Because federally, you can own a handgun at 18. You just have to buy privately. Ammo? Either you lie and says it's not for a handgun, or you roll your own.

4. Practical: i'm not an M.D. yet! i promise once i am i'll have enough weapons to arm a whole neighborhood! but right now my gun fund is limited.

As has already been covered, don't worry about arming your neighborhood. Arming someone who isn't prepared to be armed doesn't help them or you, and may even prove dangerous to him, you and everyone else.

5. some how combat eligible: I really don't want to be out gunned in a SHTF. if my opponent(s) outnumber and somehow happen to all be Class 3 owners with special forces level training then yes i'm very very dead. but in regular scenarios being able to put a good fight would be nice

Also already covered, civilian combat in this country has odds with 8 or 9 figures on the other side of the "1 in".

6. If it helps I live in Southern Idaho! (For now anyway) I am in a semi rural area with a few low population towns within 5-10 miles of my home and one large metro center around 20 miles away. Closer than i'd like but still better than living inside the city. I have very good sight lines from my house. i have 2 acres to myself and company. there is atleast 75 yards of open terrain in all directions.

Sounds similar to where I'm at, though a bit less rural (I'm on 7, the neighborhood is comprised of 4-10 acre lots). Around here, a shotgun to deal with skunks and the like, and a small caliber rifle for coyotes that get too close is far more useful than anything meant to repel an attacking infantry unit. Not that many of us don't have pretty substantial weaponry. Of course, this is another upside to the AR platform; In the right configuration, it's just as appropriate for varmint and pest control as it is for dealing with civil unrest. Thus far, my AR-15 (a 16" A2 mid length carbine) has only seen use as a range toy and close range (under 200 yard) varmint rifle.

Do remember, though, in this country, the only justification for buying more guns is the desire to own and the financial means to acquire. You don't need a bona-fide purpose for every gun you have (or any of them, for that matter)

 

[Armed Med Student]

I'm loving all this feed back.

To address one issue that was brought up, I don't have a readily availiable supply of food, I do however have a well on my property with good drinking water.

I did do some looking at those inter-arms AK style weapons, they look amazing! and i am leaning towards the AK for my next fire arms purchase. Reason being:
1. Love combloc guns
2. AR beats the ak in almost every aspect. (Only one i can think of is that the .223 may not have the stopping power. Correct me if i'm wrong but i remember reading reports while researching stuff on the Black Hawk down incidents in Somalia where Delta and Rangers were experiencing the .223 just leaving pin sized holes i the Somali militia and some of the Somali hadn't noticed they were wounded until later.)
3. I don't need that amazing 300 yard plus range of the AR, anything past 100 yards i'm just gonna leave alone.

 

[Bobson]

MREs can serve as a plenty-sufficient food supply, but I don't know what you're preparing for. I thought this thread was about generic home defense.

Please clarify, what exactly is your question? There was significantly more advice recommending you don't buy an AK than that recommending you do. As far as rifles go, your SKS is great for a defense purpose.

 

[kfgk14]

First off, you chose a great state. American Redoubt, baby! Someday I'll join you Idahoans out there...Also, congrats on thinking ahead as a youth. You're far ahead of your generation's curve, I congratulate you. It may be unlikely, as others have said, that you'll ever need a defensive arm, but being prepared is paramount.

Secondly, I'll make my suggestion for a combat rifle, in your situation: AR-15. I know, you said no. But, in combat, a mil-spec, well-built, high-quality AR with adequate lubricant (by this I mean a squirt of Slip 2000 EWL every 500 or so rounds, if you don't get a break after 500 rounds of continuous shooting, you've got bigger problems than lubrication, and even a squirt every 500 is more than necessary) and a good preventative maintenance program (have the appropriate replacement parts on hand, I.E. bolt, cam pin, firing pin, firing pin retaining pin, all of which you should carry for any weapons system) including replacing worn parts, watching for damage, etc. will see you through just fine. Google "filthy 14" to see what I mean about good guns with good lube. Filthy 14 is an excellent example of the type of rifle that one ought build if one was to build a fighting AR carbine. On the subject of AR lethality, many of these cases involved the effects of drugs, as do the reports from Fallujah. Remember, the objective is stopping the threat, not stopping the threat with one bullet. The "one shot, one kill" doctrine is bad news. If your first shot brings him down, good job. But inside 100 yards on a two-way range, I don't see why you're taking single shots; learn to control the weapon and stay on target with fast follow-up shots, and light that SOB up.

If you don't want an AR, look at an AK, it means you won't be into a second caliber and you'll have a ubiquitous system. An Arsenal AK isn't too expensive these days, and they're very high-quality.

Whatever rifle you select, be sure to add a tactical light (Streamlight TLR of your choice is a good option, or a Surefire G2 LED in a VTAC light mount), a sling (Viking Tactics Padded VTAC or a Blue Force Gear Padded VCAS), and GET TRAINING. Take a course with EAG, Magpul, Larry Vickers, Tiger Swan, VTAC, etc. Look at training videos from people like Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, etc. Training for a high-stress environment (and weapons manipulation in that high-stress environment) is the best thing you can do to up your chances of survival when you're on a two-way range. It's just like training to be an EMT: train to do your job quickly, or someone you care for will die.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Only one i can think of is that the .223 may not have the stopping power. Correct me if i'm wrong but i remember reading reports while researching stuff on the Black Hawk down incidents in Somalia where Delta and Rangers were experiencing the .223 just leaving pin sized holes i the Somali militia and some of the Somali hadn't noticed they were wounded until later

Same thing happens with all bullets, until you get into the really big stuff.

If you prefer the AK, that's your call, and no one can argue it from an opinion standpoint.

But from a logistics standpoint, we can argue in favor of the AR 'til the cows come home.

For one, don't base the decision on caliber. AR's are modular, and can be had in many chamberings, including 7.62x39mm. That said, the 7.62x39mm has only a marginal advantage against hard barriers. But against human targets? There is a reason the Soviets dropped the M43 7.62x39mm in favor of the M74 5.45x39mm. The smaller, higher-velocity projectiles create very nasty wounds, even in FMJ configuration. Additionally, the lower recoil that is the result of a lighter bullet makes the gun more controllable. Not much of an issue for semi-auto civilian guns, of course.

Also, 7.62x39mm is basically available in only three bullet types; Ball, expanding HP/SP, and AP. 5.56mm has those, in addition to frangible, controlled expansion, heavy-for-caliber hunting type, and advanced general purpose AP type (M855A1 EPR).

The decision to adopt and stick with 5.56mm ammunition by NATO countries has many reasons, but if the performance were that atrocious, it would have been dumped.

AK's haven't enjoyed such proliferation because they are vastly superior to other rifles. They are so widespread because 1)The soviets threw pallet upon pallet of rifles to anyone who supported the communist ideal 2) they are easy to make, cheaply and 3) they are useable by even the most primitive and illiterate conscripts who inhabit the worst places in the world.

Of the three AK's I've had, the only one that remains is a Lancaster Polish Tantal sidefolder in 5.45mm, and when I use up the couple cases of cheap 5.45 ammo I have, I'll probably sell it and buy another AR.

Like I said, if you have a personal preference for the AK, that is your perogative, and we can't argue with you. But if trying to decide which is truly a better rifle, well, that's been pretty well covered already.

 

[Armed Med Student]

I do have to admit I have a personal preference for the AK family. ARs are the better rifle, price wise however I feel I'll get a better deal for an AK ( I'd be more comfortable with a $500 ish wasr for now than a $800 + AR. I'll buy a really hi end AR later in life ). If I'm wrong let me know. I am here for wisdom of course. A lot of posts are recommending training. How would you train? There are training courses here I'm sure. But for the mean time what can I do at home on my little lot of land?

 

[dcarch]

You may wish to check out the converted Saigas that Classic Arms offers. They look and function practically identically to AKs, and are inexpensive. Good luck!

 

[towboat_er]

If ya want an AK, I suggest the Siaga.
http://www.classicarms.us/Saiga.htm

Something like an AK, but I think is better is the VZ58.
http://www.lowpriceguns.com/product.php_362842
Here is a thread about the VZ58................. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=532889

 

[medic-rod]

MAC-90 or SKS work great mune (have 1 of each) have never miss fed in anyway even dirty cheap and ammo is cheap. but try some out and find what you like.......

 

[Telekinesis]

I think I heard that Atlantic firearms had a pretty good price on some Arsenal AKs recently. You may want I look there. I would suggest an AK over the SKS because of more mag capacity and I believe AKs are a bit shorter, especially if you get a folder.

I also wouldn't discount the possibility of a handgun. At a federal level, handguns are perfectly legal for 18 year olds to own, you just have to do a FTF sale as opposed to using a FFL (which also usually means its cheaper). Several states even issue CC permits to anyone over 18.

Training wise, you may want to look into Tactical Response. They have some really good courses and are big on the AK.

 

[UranusDestiny]

Some trends I've noticed are that AK prices keep climbing, while AR prices keep dropping. 2 years ago, I could buy WASRs for $350. Nowadays, it seems like everyone wants $500+ for them (probably in part due to the weaker Dollar). With the costs of AR-15s dropping so much, the price difference between AKs and ARs is so low that I wouldn't consider an AK anymore just because of ergonomics. You can get a serviceable AR as low as $560-600 nowadays, and if you build it yourself, it can cost under $500.

 

[MachIVshooter]

If I'm wrong let me know.

You're not wrong to have a personal (or financial) preference for the AK, though an AR can be assembled for under $600.

We are simply pointing out that the AR is a superior weapon, and that is no surprise, given that one was essentially the basement creation of a (very bright) tank mechanic, the other the brainchild of an aircraft engineer with access to the most advanced materials and machinery of the day, some 10 years after the AK was designed.

Also, one other point I forgot to bring up about the amunition; While overall lethality of the 5.56mm round is arguably better than that of the 7.62mm M43, it is also better suited to civilian defense, as the projectiles are actually less likely to exit a structure than handgun bullets, thus reducing the danger to your neighbors, which are still failry close with 2 acre lots.

If one lives on 1,000 acres in the middle of nowhere, sure-use your Barrett .50 to defend. But for all of us who live places where we can actually see the neighbor's homes, overpenetration is a very real concern.

 

[pikid89]

Med student...you next step should be is to take that 10/22 and sign up for the next Appleseed shoot near you...it will be THE BEST 70 bucks you've ever spent in your life

it is one thing to be a man with a rifle, but its a whole 'nother thing to be a RIFLEMAN with the knowledge and skills to be able to use his rifle to great effect

I'm actually in the middle of an appleseed right now here in florida, this is my 3rd one, first as an orange hat (instructor in training)

do yourself a favor and take an appleseed course

appleseedinfo.org

 

[Thylacine]

Everyone needs a .22.

But after reading your post, I too would suggest an AMD 65. Ammo commonality with your sks. Compact and reliable.

 

[Usagi]

I do have to admit I have a personal preference for the AK family. ARs are the better rifle, price wise however I feel I'll get a better deal for an AK ( I'd be more comfortable with a $500 ish wasr for now than a $800 + AR. I'll buy a really hi end AR later in life ). If I'm wrong let me know.

Just food for thought:
PSA lower is $80 + transfer & background check (about $25 around here) = $105
Del Ton Rifle kit is $465 + S&H ($15 per their website) = $480.
That's a total of $585. That's about the same as an AK is going for around here.

 

[Shadow 7D]

2. AR beats the ak in almost every aspect. (Only one i can think of is that the .223 may not have the stopping power. Correct me if i'm wrong but i remember reading reports while researching stuff on the Black Hawk down incidents in Somalia where Delta and Rangers were experiencing the .223 just leaving pin sized holes i the Somali militia and some of the Somali hadn't noticed they were wounded until later.)

Yeah, happens to everyone, plenty of reports of Police officers being wounded and not noticing etc.

Also...
all militia men in Somolia use Khat, a narcotic drug,
ask a cop how a someone high on meth, PCP or some similar drug respond to being shot.

Get training,
really get training,
ask about the medical stuff after a year or 3 in the ER or on the road
lots of stuff you can carry, and there is ALWAYS something better (or at least that's what they claim)

that goes for guns and for medicine.

 

[LKB3rd]

I don't think you need to decide whether an AK or and AR or whatever style of rifle you are looking at is better. They all have their strengths, and with regard to AR's and AK's, I think they both do what they do well. It isn't the same things.
I think either an AK or an AR would be a good rifle to have if you are looking for a new semi-automatic.
Possibly a shotgun, if you aren't set on a rifle.

 

[Armed Med Student]

This is great stuff i'm hearing, i really appreciate all the feedback. I'm still wanting to go through the AK route. Not immediately however! For now i'm buying ammo and will soon look into a training course. The apple seed program sounds great but its about 4 hours away from me. maybe over the summer if i can't find anything closer.

 

[Armed Med Student]

I would also like to know if anyone has had any hands on experience with the WASR series of AK platforms. I'm more or less looking for reliability and durability of course. I have searched around but have not found any clear answers. It does seeem to be tied between the 1975 GP models and the WASR 10/63 models. any help is appreciated!

P.S. Been browsing around for ARs too! i've decided that maybe i will get one once i get a higher pay grade!

 

[LKB3rd]

I don't have one, but the consensus seems to be that WASR's are fine as long as you can check it for excessive mag wobble, and a canted (more than slightly) front sight base. If you are moderately handy and can put in a few hours of research and labor, a converted Saiga is a good option also. I do have personal experience with a converted Saiga and it works and shoots great.
Also, even if you don't get to an Appleseed right away (and I second the recommendation), buy a vale pack of .22 and hit the 25 yard range with the 10/22, and you might be surprised at how much better you shoot the SKS (or any other rifle) afterward.

 

[jmstevens2]

For "survival" acquiring food is one of the primary concerns. I have always thought that a Savage 24 in .22 lr and 20 ga is the perfect choice. You have .22 for small game, and everything from birdshot to 00 buckshot and deer slugs too. The SKS is fine for defense,then food should be the concern for the next gun. The savage covers both options. With 00 buck, it can be used for defense too.

First and foremost, can you start an IV, or read a 12 lead by researching on the internet? No. Get some training!! Appleseed is a good start, and it is the cheapest way to get started. Use a .22 and it is cheaper still.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I would also like to know if anyone has had any hands on experience with the WASR series of AK platforms. I'm more or less looking for reliability and durability of course.

One of mine was. It was reliable, seemed tough enough. But it was rough, and the trigger slap is annoying (painful after awhile). I paid $225 for it, later traded it for a car. Don't miss it.