Sounds like you pretty much got your answer. I'd say if you had a few thousand reloaded rounds under your belt, understood how a pointy bullet works in a chamber (ogive, throat, lands), understood pressures vs case capacity, etc, go ahead and try it. I personally haven't tried that (but I've done it with handgun reloads) but I think accuracy would be way off and feeding in a semi-auto prolly wouldn't work...
A question on a nonconventional loading tecnique
- Thread starter Bucksnot
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CMV
Member
I'm curios so if you do it, post a follow up with the results.
I think you'd still get fragmentation instead of expansion unless you got really reduced velocity from seating it backwards.
I think you'd still get fragmentation instead of expansion unless you got really reduced velocity from seating it backwards.
David Wile
Member
Hey Buckshot,
Bullets certainly can be pulled from cartridges, and they can also be loaded backwards, but doing so is not as simple as it may seem. Just pulling a bullet from a surplus 30-06 round and sticking it back in the neck backwards could result in some very destructive results. You might be able to fire such a round with no destructive results, but you just do not know until you try it. A couple of other folks have mentioned you might load a bullet backwards but you should reduce the load, and that is very sound advice.
My dad used to get me to load regular spitzer bullets backwards for him to use in his 30-06 for turkey hunting. I worked up a "backwards" load for him that was safe to shoot, but they were terrible for accuracy. I tried to get him to use a very hard cast bullet or a full metal jacket bullet instead, but somebody had told him about the great idea of shooting regular spitzer hunting bullets backwards, and he would not listen to anything I might suggest. The only thing that finally deterred him from using bullet backwards was when he tried shooting them at the range and could not hit an 8X11 piece of paper at 25 yards.
If you really want to try backwards bullets, I would suggest you put the project on a back burner until you have a good deal of experience reloading and understanding the mechanics of what makes modern cartridges work in a firearm. In my previous paragraph, I mentioned that I "worked up" a load for my dad. The term "worked up" probably does not mean anything to you at this point, but it really is very important in the craft of reloading ammunition. What it means is that I started with a bullet of a specific weight and used what the reloading manuals would consider a minimal powder charge to see if the load would be safe. As you "work up" a load, you would increase the powder in subsequent charges and test them to insure their safety as well as accuracy. At some point while working up a load, you will start getting signs of higher pressure, and you need to know enough to stop. More often than not, best accuracy loads are not at the top end of powder charges for a particular bullet, and those are the things one determines while "working up" a load.
I have always like to experiment with things including reloading activities. However, one should always recognize his limitations and not do things that one does not have the knowledge, skill, and ability to do. I know I have my limitations, and I try to recognize and stay within them. From what you have stated, it seems to me that you need to learn about reloading and leave testing backwards bullets for a future time when you are better equipped to do it safely. When you do get to the point where you are ready to try reloading bullets backward, however, remember that several of us did tell you that accuracy is not one of the best things to expect in them.
Here's hoping you have as much enjoyment at the reloading bench as I have had over the many years I have been doing this.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
Bullets certainly can be pulled from cartridges, and they can also be loaded backwards, but doing so is not as simple as it may seem. Just pulling a bullet from a surplus 30-06 round and sticking it back in the neck backwards could result in some very destructive results. You might be able to fire such a round with no destructive results, but you just do not know until you try it. A couple of other folks have mentioned you might load a bullet backwards but you should reduce the load, and that is very sound advice.
My dad used to get me to load regular spitzer bullets backwards for him to use in his 30-06 for turkey hunting. I worked up a "backwards" load for him that was safe to shoot, but they were terrible for accuracy. I tried to get him to use a very hard cast bullet or a full metal jacket bullet instead, but somebody had told him about the great idea of shooting regular spitzer hunting bullets backwards, and he would not listen to anything I might suggest. The only thing that finally deterred him from using bullet backwards was when he tried shooting them at the range and could not hit an 8X11 piece of paper at 25 yards.
If you really want to try backwards bullets, I would suggest you put the project on a back burner until you have a good deal of experience reloading and understanding the mechanics of what makes modern cartridges work in a firearm. In my previous paragraph, I mentioned that I "worked up" a load for my dad. The term "worked up" probably does not mean anything to you at this point, but it really is very important in the craft of reloading ammunition. What it means is that I started with a bullet of a specific weight and used what the reloading manuals would consider a minimal powder charge to see if the load would be safe. As you "work up" a load, you would increase the powder in subsequent charges and test them to insure their safety as well as accuracy. At some point while working up a load, you will start getting signs of higher pressure, and you need to know enough to stop. More often than not, best accuracy loads are not at the top end of powder charges for a particular bullet, and those are the things one determines while "working up" a load.
I have always like to experiment with things including reloading activities. However, one should always recognize his limitations and not do things that one does not have the knowledge, skill, and ability to do. I know I have my limitations, and I try to recognize and stay within them. From what you have stated, it seems to me that you need to learn about reloading and leave testing backwards bullets for a future time when you are better equipped to do it safely. When you do get to the point where you are ready to try reloading bullets backward, however, remember that several of us did tell you that accuracy is not one of the best things to expect in them.
Here's hoping you have as much enjoyment at the reloading bench as I have had over the many years I have been doing this.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
atonguis
Member
Omg, rofl 
beatledog7
beatledog7
35 Whelen
Member
This is the kind of reply I like to see; actual experience. Not guessing, nail-biting panic.
35W
Hondo 60
Member
Bucksnot
You showed good sense by coming here to ask your question.
That's exactly the type of person that makes a good reloader.
Think outside the average person's box, but don't be afraid to ask questions.
If you're interested in the reloading process, I would strongly recommend you read a reloading manual.
Lyman's 49th Reloading Handbook, The ABCs of Reloading or Modern Reloading are 3 pretty good books.
If you don't want to spend the money on one, how about checking with the library?
That's what I did & I've since reloaded well over 100,000 rounds.
(and I still have all 10 fingers & 7 manuals)
You showed good sense by coming here to ask your question.
That's exactly the type of person that makes a good reloader.
Think outside the average person's box, but don't be afraid to ask questions.
If you're interested in the reloading process, I would strongly recommend you read a reloading manual.
Lyman's 49th Reloading Handbook, The ABCs of Reloading or Modern Reloading are 3 pretty good books.
If you don't want to spend the money on one, how about checking with the library?
That's what I did & I've since reloaded well over 100,000 rounds.
(and I still have all 10 fingers & 7 manuals)
NeuseRvrRat
Member
if you have to ask...
David Wile
Member
Hey Kingmt,
I really do not want to appear disagreeable in my response to your comments, so I hope what follows is taken in the spirit of friendly discussion.
First I would submit for consideration that bullets are designed to "fly" through the air efficiently, and I would also submit they do not fly well backwards. Yes, I know from first hand experience that wadcutter pistol bullets do quite well both coming and going. However, the good results achieved by wadcutters is pretty much confined to short distances. I doubt very much if anyone would suggets that wadcutters would be effective at 100 yards and beyond.
Accordingly, I would target my remarks to rifle bullets. In the case of rifle bullets flying forward or backwards, I would point out that I have never seen any rifle competition where competitors were shooting bullets backwards. Most of the bullets I have seen used are Match quality bullets that all weigh virtually the same. They are also usually some form of boat tail rear with a spitzer or similarly shaped nose. I have never seen anyone competing with bullets loaded backwards.
I do not know what you do to get better results from bullets loaded backwards, but I have never seen such results duplicated at competition matches.
Yes, one can shoot patched round balls very effectively at 100 yards. But again I would point out that patched round balls do not fly as well as modern bullets and are accordingly also not used in modern competitions.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
I really do not want to appear disagreeable in my response to your comments, so I hope what follows is taken in the spirit of friendly discussion.
First I would submit for consideration that bullets are designed to "fly" through the air efficiently, and I would also submit they do not fly well backwards. Yes, I know from first hand experience that wadcutter pistol bullets do quite well both coming and going. However, the good results achieved by wadcutters is pretty much confined to short distances. I doubt very much if anyone would suggets that wadcutters would be effective at 100 yards and beyond.
Accordingly, I would target my remarks to rifle bullets. In the case of rifle bullets flying forward or backwards, I would point out that I have never seen any rifle competition where competitors were shooting bullets backwards. Most of the bullets I have seen used are Match quality bullets that all weigh virtually the same. They are also usually some form of boat tail rear with a spitzer or similarly shaped nose. I have never seen anyone competing with bullets loaded backwards.
I do not know what you do to get better results from bullets loaded backwards, but I have never seen such results duplicated at competition matches.
Yes, one can shoot patched round balls very effectively at 100 yards. But again I would point out that patched round balls do not fly as well as modern bullets and are accordingly also not used in modern competitions.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
35 Whelen
Member
David Wile
Member
Hey 35,
Now that was a topper. It did bring a big smile to me.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
Now that was a topper. It did bring a big smile to me.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
I related true results not what I though would happen. I tried this because of another thread I read on here. I have read alot about others doing it with the same results.
My 2 bits tho: I believe that the reason they get better groups is air drag. If you get close to the back of a truck going 70mph it whips you all over the place. You wouldn't notice it at 35mph. In a plane the tail is what directs the path of flight. If you look at the back of a FMJ it isn't straight. It is concaved & I believe it causes a twisting in the air flow that also causes the bullet to move in the same direction. With the point as the tail there is little area for drag to disturbed.
Now for more truth: I have no idea why because it is outside of my knowage & that is just how my brain reasons it.
My 2 bits tho: I believe that the reason they get better groups is air drag. If you get close to the back of a truck going 70mph it whips you all over the place. You wouldn't notice it at 35mph. In a plane the tail is what directs the path of flight. If you look at the back of a FMJ it isn't straight. It is concaved & I believe it causes a twisting in the air flow that also causes the bullet to move in the same direction. With the point as the tail there is little area for drag to disturbed.
Now for more truth: I have no idea why because it is outside of my knowage & that is just how my brain reasons it.
I don't shoot much round ball but those that I know that do tell me to load with the uneven casting mark forward for better accuracy. I assume because of drag.Maybe the round balls would shoot better if they were loaded backwards...
35W
Greg Mercurio
Member
This has been a really enjoyable thread, but let's not forget the original post: No equipment, I heard, hammer. Lots of red flags flying in the OP.
So if you want to take the high road and make a 3 paragraph explanation of why this is a bad idea, so be it. I prefer to be blunt with potential Murphy and Darwin award winners. Hats off to the OP. At least he didn't post: "What went wrong here" while typing with one hand.
Now, had this been a treatise on the merits of working up loads with bullets loaded backwards it woul be a different thread indeed. And I wouldn't have said a word because I come here to learn from people who actually do practice what they preach.
So if you want to take the high road and make a 3 paragraph explanation of why this is a bad idea, so be it. I prefer to be blunt with potential Murphy and Darwin award winners. Hats off to the OP. At least he didn't post: "What went wrong here" while typing with one hand.
Now, had this been a treatise on the merits of working up loads with bullets loaded backwards it woul be a different thread indeed. And I wouldn't have said a word because I come here to learn from people who actually do practice what they preach.
Oklacoyotekiller
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no offence to anyone here, but i think everyone but a few missed what the real danger of what was suggested. its not a question of whether or not the bullets will function backwards or not. the method of pulling and reloading with a hammer is what concerned me.
snuffy
Member
Those eggsurts here that are getting their panties in a wad about using a hammer to assemble live rifle rounds, have apparently never used a lee hand loader, sometimes referred to as a classic loader. Indeed a hammer is used to seat a bullet,AND to seat a primer!
A bunch of fraidy cats guessing about stuff just clouds the water.
I loaded some 35 cal pistol bullets backwards in a 35 Remington, a Marlin levergun. They worked okay, but would not feed from the magazine. They were also not very accurate. Made nice round holes in the target though. This was many years ago, like 30. Reason? To see if it could be done. Never again!
A bunch of fraidy cats guessing about stuff just clouds the water.
I loaded some 35 cal pistol bullets backwards in a 35 Remington, a Marlin levergun. They worked okay, but would not feed from the magazine. They were also not very accurate. Made nice round holes in the target though. This was many years ago, like 30. Reason? To see if it could be done. Never again!
Greg Mercurio
Member
kingmt, snuffy: Really? Look at the original post again. .223, pull the bullet rotate, pound it back in with a hammer. So, I guess the crimp would disappear and the neck would be resized by magic? Come on.
The OP posted something that was ill-advised. Some people here replied in a manner consistent with safer than sorry.
My apologies if that approach is inconsistent with your personal preferences and life philosophy. :banghead:
The OP posted something that was ill-advised. Some people here replied in a manner consistent with safer than sorry.
My apologies if that approach is inconsistent with your personal preferences and life philosophy. :banghead:
They replied was information on a topic they didn't understand. Nothing wrong with playing it safe. Nothing wrong with advice to play it safe.
But when the bullet is pulled it will iron out the crimp & the neck will not have the same amount of press the second time. Without resizeing the neck they would pop back in without much press to even hold the bullet in place. Steel would retain more of the press then brass. The bullet would probably even be a little undersized. This is the reality.
I will point out that it wouldn't work very well in a auto loader. This has already been said but to play it safe I'll repeat it.
But when the bullet is pulled it will iron out the crimp & the neck will not have the same amount of press the second time. Without resizeing the neck they would pop back in without much press to even hold the bullet in place. Steel would retain more of the press then brass. The bullet would probably even be a little undersized. This is the reality.
I will point out that it wouldn't work very well in a auto loader. This has already been said but to play it safe I'll repeat it.
Snuffy - you brought the lee dies into the equation - he said he did not have any reloading equipment and was going to use the hammer itself to seat the bullet.
Kingmt - I think your comment about most everyone here not knowing what they're talking about is a not entirely accurate - many here understand the mechanics and physics of reloading and many here have experimented with numerous things regarding reloading. We were simply trying to steer a young man ( a guess on my part of his age) from doing something completely foolish with no prior experience or knowledge. I think he responded well.
I personally do not doubt that a bullet can be fired when loaded backwards, I would just never go about it in the way the OP described or recommend that anyone else try this method.
That being said, I have taken the time to pull apart an xm193 round without a bullet puller, put the powder back in it and seated the bullet in the manner described. If you want to put it in your gun and pull the trigger I would be happy to film it and settle the issue once and for all. Just throwing it out there
Kingmt - I think your comment about most everyone here not knowing what they're talking about is a not entirely accurate - many here understand the mechanics and physics of reloading and many here have experimented with numerous things regarding reloading. We were simply trying to steer a young man ( a guess on my part of his age) from doing something completely foolish with no prior experience or knowledge. I think he responded well.
I personally do not doubt that a bullet can be fired when loaded backwards, I would just never go about it in the way the OP described or recommend that anyone else try this method.
That being said, I have taken the time to pull apart an xm193 round without a bullet puller, put the powder back in it and seated the bullet in the manner described. If you want to put it in your gun and pull the trigger I would be happy to film it and settle the issue once and for all. Just throwing it out there
You rewarded what I said to sound different then context that I said it in. I know there is knowageable people here. I stay out of most of the threads because ether anything I could offer has already been said or others have more knowage then I do on a subject. There is those that just scream danger danger tho.
As for the round you put back together. I wonder why you think it is unsafe. If your unsure of it I'm not going to shoot it.
Before I got a shell holder for 2 of my cartridges I put a punch in the case & beat the primers in against the wood burner. No problems.
As for the round you put back together. I wonder why you think it is unsafe. If your unsure of it I'm not going to shoot it.
Before I got a shell holder for 2 of my cartridges I put a punch in the case & beat the primers in against the wood burner. No problems.
Oklacoyotekiller
Member
- Joined
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yes lee makes loaders you beat with a hammer. i won't use em. have personally seen primers discharge with these. all Im sayin is its probly not a good idea for a novice to experiment in this way with no equipment, no knowledge of what can happen when you make small changes to an otherwise safe load. we should be encouraging him to get the proper equipment and study a load manual before attempting anything.
Bucksnot,
Here is a good write up with pictures of a guy who did it to test accuracy as well as shooting them into water jugs.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot50.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32.htm
Box o' Truth is a great website. It's kind of like Mythbusters for gun stuff.
Here is a good write up with pictures of a guy who did it to test accuracy as well as shooting them into water jugs.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot50.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32.htm
Box o' Truth is a great website. It's kind of like Mythbusters for gun stuff.
Kernel
Member
If you ever did try to develop a subsonic load with a backward bullet you'd want to use a much faster powder, anyway. The powder used in the original cartridge wouldn't be appropriate. There's more to it than just using less powder in the case.
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