combatantr2
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An aluminum frame firearm 'say a Taurus (917CS-9mm) vs. a polymer frame firearm, which is more durable? Does stainless steel mean aluminum?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
A Question on Durability
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combatantr2
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Anyone???
Swag
Scientific Wild Ass Guess: From the standpoint of metal to plastic, I would have to go with the metal as the strongest but there are alot of variables in that statement to. I won't trade my polymer kahr PM9 for an all metal one the same size MK9. I bought it to carry, so liteness was a factor with me besides quality. I feel I got both. Now I shoot alot for range use my Kahr K9 (all stainless) and love it.
The Ruger lcp 380 was designeld for pocket carry and to be lite, so therefore a polymer grip, same thing with the Kel-tecs. Ruger SR9, and oh yes GLOCKS.
Scientific Wild Ass Guess: From the standpoint of metal to plastic, I would have to go with the metal as the strongest but there are alot of variables in that statement to. I won't trade my polymer kahr PM9 for an all metal one the same size MK9. I bought it to carry, so liteness was a factor with me besides quality. I feel I got both. Now I shoot alot for range use my Kahr K9 (all stainless) and love it.
The Ruger lcp 380 was designeld for pocket carry and to be lite, so therefore a polymer grip, same thing with the Kel-tecs. Ruger SR9, and oh yes GLOCKS.
Schleprok62
Member
I just picked up a Taurus 24/7 Pro and everyone I've talked to says it's a great piece to have. According to Taurus, they put 10,000 "failure free rounds" through one at the World Speed Shooting Steel Challenge. They have a video about it... I'd say that's pretty durable...
(if the marketing is true...)
(if the marketing is true...)
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Not picking on you but I always laugh when I hear someone asking about durability. Most of those that are so worried about how long a particular pistol will last are the same ones that will trade it away after putting 600 rounds through because they can't hit crap with it. Not only that but if you have $6000-8000 to spend on ammo to wear out a pistol you surely can afford to replace it, and you probably have gotten you monies worth out of it. Again please don't take my post the wrong way.
dave from mesa
Member
"Does stainless steel mean aluminum? "
No.
Stainless is steel. Aluminum is a totally diff metal.
Chances of wearing out either gun under normal shooting conditions is almost nil.
No.
Stainless is steel. Aluminum is a totally diff metal.
Chances of wearing out either gun under normal shooting conditions is almost nil.
PointOneSeven
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Shoot them and enjoy them! Just like cars, guitars, and alcohol; some things aren't meant to be locked up for investment purposes by the average Joe.
rinspeed
ur dead right there, My bet is that 90% never shoot their handguns even a 1000 rounds, let alone 5 to 10,000. I sold guns for a living for 40 years and can't ever remember anyone ever bringing in a gun that was WORN out from shooting. So to me if even some guns are listed as 5 to 6000 rounds, it might seem like that is a small total (and for me it would be, for I buy-um and I shoot um) but in reality, that is more than a lifetime of shooting for most owners. How many people actually wear out their cars/trucks???not to many that I know of.
ur dead right there, My bet is that 90% never shoot their handguns even a 1000 rounds, let alone 5 to 10,000. I sold guns for a living for 40 years and can't ever remember anyone ever bringing in a gun that was WORN out from shooting. So to me if even some guns are listed as 5 to 6000 rounds, it might seem like that is a small total (and for me it would be, for I buy-um and I shoot um) but in reality, that is more than a lifetime of shooting for most owners. How many people actually wear out their cars/trucks???not to many that I know of.
The question regarding durability between an aluminum frame vs a polymer frame would typically run in favor of the polymer frame, assuming equal quality.
The edge doesn't lie in the strength of either frame, it lies in the frame rails.
The aluminum frame has, of course, aluminum rails. The polymer frame usually has steel rails imbedded.
The alloy rails will wear faster than the steel rails.
To illustrate, whenever somebody builds a Beretta 92 into a serious longterm competition pistol (like the Army, for instance), one essential modification is installing steel rail inserts in the frame.
This does not mean the Beretta pistol will wear out in 10,000 rounds, and it's not picking on that pistol, just using it as an illustration.
The difference in longevity would vary from design to design, it would run a fairly high round count (in most quality pistols) before the alloy frame would be considered worn out, and the alloy frame may be a bit more liable to wear in certain pinholes and breakage of rail sections.
Denis
The edge doesn't lie in the strength of either frame, it lies in the frame rails.
The aluminum frame has, of course, aluminum rails. The polymer frame usually has steel rails imbedded.
The alloy rails will wear faster than the steel rails.
To illustrate, whenever somebody builds a Beretta 92 into a serious longterm competition pistol (like the Army, for instance), one essential modification is installing steel rail inserts in the frame.
This does not mean the Beretta pistol will wear out in 10,000 rounds, and it's not picking on that pistol, just using it as an illustration.
The difference in longevity would vary from design to design, it would run a fairly high round count (in most quality pistols) before the alloy frame would be considered worn out, and the alloy frame may be a bit more liable to wear in certain pinholes and breakage of rail sections.
Denis
There's a lot to consider here:
- frictional durability (ie, how well will rubbing parts wear)
- impactive durability (ie, on the slide stop and where the recoil spring rests)
- tensional durability (stress areas, such as around the slide stop and on the rails)
- environmental durability (how well will the various parts hold up to environmental factors, like sunlight, moisture, and salts)
- design durability (the inherent characteristics of the design, i.e. what was the firearm designed to withstand)
These are all inter-relational, to some degree. For instance, environmental factors may result in a structural failure catalyzed by impact, or may speed the deterioration of wearing parts.
In most cases, however, the frame, slide/bolt, an barrel - the major parts of a firearm - will outlast the minor, smaller parts (trigger group, springs, bolt catch) provided there were no defects in the construction or materials.
Two case-in-points: I know of only two specific people who have shot more than 25,000 rounds in specific pistols. One was/is a stock Springfield GI 1911 (w/ only feed ramp polish and sight replacement having been done), which needed a recoil spring replacement at around 20k rounds (IIRC); that was in central Texas. The other is a H&K USP .45, which has had over 25,000 rounds put through it, and needed a new magazine release retention spring (it wasn't failing, it was just loose-feeling), recoil spring, and new barrel (which was partially shot out - a lot of hot ammo got put through it).
I also happen to know that there are quite a few aluminum alloy 1911s from the 1970s and earlier still floating around in use, though not nearly as many old steel ones. Proportionally, though, it would seem to be roughly the same as the all-steel.
The point is this: unless you are a "one pistol" kind of guy who shoots on the order of thousands of rounds through it a year, it will take you a lifetime to wear out a quality pistol - regardless of the material.
Taking exception for guns with 15,000+ rounds through the throat, those of poor design or designed specifically for a small number of rounds (Keltek P38T or what have you), and environmental factors (salt water, leaving a polymer gun in fierce sunlight for prolonged periods, extended acidic/close body carry, excessive over-cleaning), a gun is likely to outlast the owner and owner's child.
- frictional durability (ie, how well will rubbing parts wear)
- impactive durability (ie, on the slide stop and where the recoil spring rests)
- tensional durability (stress areas, such as around the slide stop and on the rails)
- environmental durability (how well will the various parts hold up to environmental factors, like sunlight, moisture, and salts)
- design durability (the inherent characteristics of the design, i.e. what was the firearm designed to withstand)
These are all inter-relational, to some degree. For instance, environmental factors may result in a structural failure catalyzed by impact, or may speed the deterioration of wearing parts.
In most cases, however, the frame, slide/bolt, an barrel - the major parts of a firearm - will outlast the minor, smaller parts (trigger group, springs, bolt catch) provided there were no defects in the construction or materials.
Two case-in-points: I know of only two specific people who have shot more than 25,000 rounds in specific pistols. One was/is a stock Springfield GI 1911 (w/ only feed ramp polish and sight replacement having been done), which needed a recoil spring replacement at around 20k rounds (IIRC); that was in central Texas. The other is a H&K USP .45, which has had over 25,000 rounds put through it, and needed a new magazine release retention spring (it wasn't failing, it was just loose-feeling), recoil spring, and new barrel (which was partially shot out - a lot of hot ammo got put through it).
I also happen to know that there are quite a few aluminum alloy 1911s from the 1970s and earlier still floating around in use, though not nearly as many old steel ones. Proportionally, though, it would seem to be roughly the same as the all-steel.
The point is this: unless you are a "one pistol" kind of guy who shoots on the order of thousands of rounds through it a year, it will take you a lifetime to wear out a quality pistol - regardless of the material.
Taking exception for guns with 15,000+ rounds through the throat, those of poor design or designed specifically for a small number of rounds (Keltek P38T or what have you), and environmental factors (salt water, leaving a polymer gun in fierce sunlight for prolonged periods, extended acidic/close body carry, excessive over-cleaning), a gun is likely to outlast the owner and owner's child.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Polymer frame = low matienance, won't show dings badly; while anodized
aluminum will. Its very painstaking and expensive to have an old frame
re-anodized; as not everyone in the buisness can do it~!
aluminum will. Its very painstaking and expensive to have an old frame
re-anodized; as not everyone in the buisness can do it~!
Youngster
Member
I trust polymer frames to stand up to use and abuse far more than I do aluminum alloy, aluminum just seems be be too prone to being battered and stretched for my liking.
combatantr2
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dave_from_mesa; my thoughts exactly. But my friendly FFL told me today that the PT917CS has a stainless finish but has got aluminum frame underneath. He failed to mention though if the PT917CS is anodized finish treated.
Anyways, I have already made a downpayment for this gun and am truly excited to have this one in 2weeks.
Thanks.
Anyways, I have already made a downpayment for this gun and am truly excited to have this one in 2weeks.
Thanks.
dave from mesa
Member
Well you have a good time shooting that gun. You let us know IF you should wear it out.
combatantr2
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Yep, thats probably it. A stainless steel slide and aluminum frame.
To clarify-
It is a common method of labeling pistols with stainless slides & alloy frames in catalogs & other print discriptions to list them as Finish: Stainless. This is purely to differentiate between them and Finish: Blue.
No, there is no specific "stainless finish" for anything, it's either stainless or it's not stainless.
"Stainless finish" as applied to a Taurus (or Beretta, or whatever) pistol with a stainless top & an alloy bottom is merely a descriptor to say it has a stainless slide instead of a blued one.
Other pistols with steel frames are also labeled as "stainless finish" for the same reason.
Alluminum frames cannot be finished in stainless. They are typically hard anodyzed, essentially a surface treatment, and can be finished in a number of different colors.
Denis
It is a common method of labeling pistols with stainless slides & alloy frames in catalogs & other print discriptions to list them as Finish: Stainless. This is purely to differentiate between them and Finish: Blue.
No, there is no specific "stainless finish" for anything, it's either stainless or it's not stainless.
"Stainless finish" as applied to a Taurus (or Beretta, or whatever) pistol with a stainless top & an alloy bottom is merely a descriptor to say it has a stainless slide instead of a blued one.
Other pistols with steel frames are also labeled as "stainless finish" for the same reason.
Alluminum frames cannot be finished in stainless. They are typically hard anodyzed, essentially a surface treatment, and can be finished in a number of different colors.
Denis
What about just the effects of age? What is the latest word on how long a polymer pistol frame will last given low usage? I know some plastic just seems to fall apart with age. I am not against poly's as I have a couple.
For example, what if I think about handing some stuff down to my kids in 40 years. I hope I am not the only one who thinks of that or maybe there is something wrong with me.
For example, what if I think about handing some stuff down to my kids in 40 years. I hope I am not the only one who thinks of that or maybe there is something wrong with me.
Remember that polymer comes in many different formulas and can have additives to prevent cracking, brittleness, UV radiation, etc. Long-term wearability depends on what formula the polymer is.
Basic rule of thumb is to keep your gun from long-term exposure to sunlight (probably the most damaging), non-guncleaning solvents as well as rapidly changing temperatures.
But don't forget that modern firearms are created for military applications, it can take more abuse than you'll ever be willing to treat it.
Basic rule of thumb is to keep your gun from long-term exposure to sunlight (probably the most damaging), non-guncleaning solvents as well as rapidly changing temperatures.
But don't forget that modern firearms are created for military applications, it can take more abuse than you'll ever be willing to treat it.
You are outright wrong.
I work with certain high-technology companies at the manufacturing level and the companies we work with who provide polymer resins such as Dow, GE, Technopolymer, all provide extremely detailed specifications for every formula of resin they offer. They all have engineers on-call who will visit your factories and help you 'dial-in' a formula to fit exactly what characteristics you want.
Wearability, elasticity, strength, resistance to natural and chemical elements, etc. are all well known and graphed.
Dunno, that's why I have engineers do the heavy-lifting to make me look good. What I do know is that there are Glock firearms at least 25 years old and still perfectly functional. (The G17 & G22 that I own are both over 10 years old with no visible signs of wear or polymeric breakdown.) Glock wasn't the first polymer gun anyway -HK VP70 was and that gun will be 38 years old this year, also the HK G3 and FH FAL rifles have existed since the 1950's with plastic furniture...no issues of "structural integrity" failures with any of them.
I also do know that Chuck Taylor has a Glock with over 250,000 (that's one quarter million) rounds through it. Still going strong I think.
Look, I don't even like Glocks! But that doesn't mean I don't think they are "durable" in design and materials. My real goal is to try and get noobs stop babying their guns and to stop crying if they get a scratch on it.
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