A question on mini/micro 45 1911's

[agtman]

I think the Filipino junk is a great bang for the buck purchase, and despite the tooling marks, the ChiCom crap was well made out of good steal. * * *

Maybe for use as a range "beater," i.e., sort of an "I-don't-care-about-it" secondary 1911 to blast thru reloads or low-budget fodder at the range.

* * *I personally dont care for the short 1911s. I have been down that road twice, and to keep them boring reliable like my 5" guns, I changed the recoil spring every 500 rounds or so.

Actually, that brings up an important issue about maintaining these shorty 1911s to which I've seen different responses: how often (or at what rd-count) are guys changing out the springs on their Defenders, NAs, DW ECOs, SA RO Compacts, and other similar 3" and 3.5" models?

I'm seeing statements posted of anywhere from 500rds on the low end to 800rds on the upper (?).

 

[HexHead]

Check out the Colt Defender or New Agent. They have 3" barrels, 7 round mags, and weigh in at or under 25 oz. MSRP is below your budget.

See:

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Pistols/Defender™Series.aspx

Colt has figured out how to make 3" 1911s completely reliable. I used to have a New Agent, and not matter what I fed it, was as boringly reliable as a Glock. Everyone I've known that's had a Series-90 Defender line pistol's experience has mirrored mine.

 

[george burns]

Is the Agent as reliable as the defender. The defender always looked a bit clunky to me, probably because of the Rubber grip. and the Agent has no sight, except for that groove, "trench" sight. And the slide always felt like the tolerances were left loose, "in order to prevent problems feeding". I appreciate the help, any others like the Springfield? I had an EMP in 40, but I don't like 40. For me a carry gun is either in 9mm or 45. Just my personal preference, so a true 1911 in 45 3-4 inches is still the gun I am seeking, maybe it should be a Kimber, even though I haven't seen the value in those guns, they all seem have some problem "the new ones". Even the finish on the 2 tone guns seems flimsy. Perhaps a stainless ultra TLE or Custom Carry, with new mags McCormick or Tripp mags. I bet if Tuner is around, he's going to say, get a Rock Island, or go for a 4.25" inch Colt Combat commander, and be done with it. I just wanted lighter and smaller.

 

[agtman]

I haven't seen any reviews from 2013-2014 (the time period when I was researching owner/user experiences with the New Agent) where its reliability was even mentioned as an issue.

The only issue consistently highlighted in the range reports was whether the user could accustom himself or herself to the clearly non-traditional trench sight. The upshot was that after a lot of practice with it, you could overcome the initial "oddness" of drawing a sight-pic on a target without the benefit of normal front & rear sights, and make quick, accurate COM hits from the distance at which you'd likely use it in a real face-to-face fight.

So, if the NA is really a serious candidate in your 3" 1911 search, that's where you should start the process: how wedded are you to the traditional front/rear sight system? Are you going to put in the range time & accept the ammo expense needed (less a factor if you reload) to master the NA's trench sight for effective defensive shooting?

If you're more of a traditionalist, you might want to limit yourself to the 3" models w/ sights, like the Defender. FWIW, although it's a separate factor, I think my NA's dark finish is beautiful. Arguably it's also more discreet for CCW than a comparable stainless model.

By the way, Kimber's 3" Ultra RCP II (sku # 3200243) is their equivalent of Colt's NA, although Kimber calls it a "trough" rather than a "trench" sight. Price point on the RCP is about $1000. Here's a link:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...0815/Kimber+3200243+Ultra+RCP+II+7+1+45ACP+3"

 

[2wheels]

There is a version of the New Agent with sights, I believe it was a special edition offered by TALO, might be possible to track one of those down. Alternatively, there's also the option of a Crimson Trace laser to assist in aiming (Colt even sells a New Agent with that as a factory option). As far as the Defender goes, the grips are an easy fix if that's all that bothers you.

I've never heard anyone say that the New Agent is less reliable than the Defender, it is essentially the same gun from the same manufacturer after all. Getting used to the trench sight isn't a big deal, you might be surprised just how accurately you can shoot a gun without traditional sights at 7-10 yards with a little practice.

Although you did request only 3" 1911s, don't count out CCO style 1911s. They've got the 4.25" (or sometimes 4") barrel of a Commander style 1911 with the shorter grip of the micro 1911s you're looking at. My TALO edition Colt CCO is not significantly bigger or heavier than my New Agent, it's just as easy to conceal, but it's a little easier to shoot (plus theoretically more reliable due to the longer barrel/slide). You can find these style 1911s from a few companies, Colt, Sig, and Dan Wesson being three I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[short barrel]

Any time you try to make the 1911 something it ain't, you will get problems. A 1911 is not an aluminum frame gun. It is not a gun with less than a 5" barrel. It does not have plastic parts. It's not a Glock and it's not striker fired. The 1911 design is so terrific that makers have tried to market it in more pleasing configurations, but it cannot be done on a continuing reliable basis. A less than 3" version will fail. Of course there are exceptions--sometimes someone gets one that is actually completely reliable. Commander size are also flawed, simply in the fact that they are not 5". The gun was made to work with a 5" barrel. The 1911 is what it is and it cannot be something else.

Although the OP didn't ask, a learned ballistic student knows the .45acp is no longer king. The performance of lesser calibers in premium ammunition makes the .45 way less than what it was in comparison. Take time to look at the performance of modern ammo. See what the 9mm can do in terms of penetration and expansion. You can buy +P .45acp ammo and gain 100fps over the standard, but you still can't reach what most any centerfire handgun ammo will do, with less recoil.

I love the 1911 .45. I love it in the sense that it has been such a classic pistol. However, regardless of what the manufacturers do to make them sexy and appealable, they are what they are. They are a .45 caliber bullet moving slowly which may or may not expand. The old argument of a .45 needs no expansion is still viable, but has become antiquated if one considers that some lesser calibers will always expand, always penetrate, and do so cheaper and with less recoil. When a high performance 9mm will penetrate 12 inches and expand to 3/4 of an inch, the .45 appears ancient.

Of course, that's my opinion. But it's based on much research. My next purchase will be a full size 1911 in 9mm. Weight and size are no longer considerations for me in a c/c weapon. If and when you ever need a gun to save yourself, you will be glad you bought and carried what will be better than the gun your opponent has.

I get weary reading all the crap about carry weight and size. It is a lazy generation that puts that ahead of the very reason we carry. The logic that the gun we carry will very likely never be needed (therefore carry something small and weak) is utterly flawed. If we have no reason to carry, then we should not.

Lordy. I always get carried away from what the OP asked.

 

[Zach S]

I get weary reading all the crap about carry weight and size. It is a lazy generation that puts that ahead of the very reason we carry. The logic that the gun we carry will very likely never be needed (therefore carry something small and weak) is utterly flawed. If we have no reason to carry, then we should not.

While I wont argue with that, I do feel the need to point out that the OP stated he has carried for a few decades, and his age is a contributing factor for a smaller pistol...

I can feel the years catching up on me, especially when climbing in and out of my lowered Acura, and I'm just 33. If he walked into my (theoretical) gunshop with what he said in the original post, laziness is the last thing I would assume.

 

[smalls]

Oddly, a Defender is probably the only Colt I'd buy. Their 5" 1911's don't do anything for me, and I think they're overpriced for what they are. Their officer's are good deals, though.

I wasn't a fan of the NA's trench sight. I get that sights on a gun this small don't really mean much, but I just couldn't get used to them on the NA I tried.

 

[paracordkydexcummins]

You can find the detonics combat master for under a grand on gun broker. I have thought about getting one to go with my para expert.

 

[paracordkydexcummins]

I looked at all the calibers and chose a 45 for the simple reason I could find it at walmart the 10 mm isn't even sold here. I buy ammo at the gun stores but the ability to pickup cheap practice ammo was important. The flip side is I would like to get a suppressor and 45s excel at that due to the 230-300 grain bullets.

 

[agtman]

You can find the detonics combat master for under a grand on gun broker. I have thought about getting one to go with my para expert.

Some want a lot of $$$ even for the *well-used* CMs.

Still, there's a certain draw to these little blasters.

 

[Combat Engineer]

Have 1911s in all sizes, but prefer a 3" shorty. Despite large hands I find these little 1911s very easy to hold and balance, and they are very accurate. The reliability issues have finally been sorted out with manufacturers using proper springs. The lightest one in my rotation is a Kimber Ultra RCP II at 25 oz. I chose it over the Colt New Agent, because of the sights. Both have groove/trench sights along the top of the slide which makes for a very fast draw (no sight to drag in holster), the Kimber is a rounded groove along the top, the Colt is a square cut that looks to be 2 different size cuts before and after the ejection port. Also, they come with flat/trimmed, or full hammers, I prefer a full hammer. The Kimber works fine for me.

Good luck deciding.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

a gun with less than a 5" barrel. It does not have plastic parts. It's not a Glock and it's not striker fired. The 1911 design is so terrific that makers have tried to market it in more pleasing configurations, but it cannot be done on a continuing reliable basis. A less than 3" version will fail. Of course there are exceptions--sometimes someone gets one that is actually completely reliable. Commander size are also flawed, simply in the fact that they are not 5". The gun was made to work with a 5" barrel. The 1911 is what it is and it cannot be something else.

Of course, that's my opinion. But it's based on much research.

As long as your opinion is based on Internet gun forum research it has little to do with reality - as you mostly get made-up factoids endless repeated in the Internet echo chamber by people who "know" what they're talking about because they've read about repeatedly on the Internet.

It's a self-perpetuating loop of misinformation interpreted and reinterpreted to back-up whatever opinion you feel is "right."

As to real life - I've owned a Detonics Combat Master since 1983, and currently have three Commander size 1911's - all of these guns are reliable and work with hollow points. In fact, I use one of the guns for action pistol because I can sight the gun easier with my antique eyes through my heavily corrected shooting glasses.

Maybe you should understand that the ORIGINAL design of the 1911 was built to work as a 5-inch gun and that "fact" does NOT apply to shorter versions that have modified designs made to work at a shorter length.

As to your opinion about the .45 caliber...whatever...

No handgun, other than one of the super large calibers (.460 S&W, .500 S&W, .475 Linebaugh, etc.), is going to come close to a rifle caliber for stopping ability in a self defense situation - 9mm vs .45...you'll never make a rationale case that one is definitively better or worse than the other.

So, let's leave that to the OP to choose caliber on his own. Of the proposed guns so far, - I'd take the DW ECO.

 

[george burns]

Agtman, do they still have feeding problems or timing issues?, And are they making them again. I remember seeing a few yrs. ago that someone had purchased the Company, Or something like that? The Deltonics, that is. thanks again.

 

[royal barnes]

I would have said Colt Defender or New Agent until a couple of months ago. At that time I purchased an STI Elektra. It is very well built with STI reliability. Accurate and reduced recoil due to the system they use. It has fed everything I have run through it even shooting mixed ammo rapid fire to include full wadcutters. I have three hundred trouble free rounds through it and have started carrying it on a regular basis. It's in your price range and STI's customer service is legendary. Look up the specs. It just may be what you are looking for. Don't get thrown off by the pink or purple versions. It is available in black. I'm sold enough on it for carry that I have done something unheard of for me. I just ordered a set of ivories from Boone Trading Co. I'm 70 years old so I want my carry gun pretty as well as reliable. My two 3" Colts, both good shooters and very reliable, are at my LGS on consignment.

 

[george burns]

Nice looking gun.

 

[agtman]

Agtman, do they still have feeding problems or timing issues?, And are they making them again. I remember seeing a few yrs. ago that someone had purchased the Company, Or something like that? The Deltonics, that is. thanks again.

George: the CM in the pic isn't mine. I've heard the Detonics line is back (sort of like the return of the Coonan line of .357 autos), but have no experience w/ their new models.

I did hear that certain of the original CMs had feeding issues, depending on where/when they were made, but back in the day I also saw one or two that ran fine. Same with the early Colt 3.5" Officers' models. You always heard they had reliability problems out of the box, but a cop buddy had a stainless one and let me shoot it a few times. It too ran fine, and as far as I recall never required a pistolsmith's intervention.

 

[royal barnes]

I owned two of the original CM's for a time. One was very reliable and the other was a jamomatic. I got rid of the problem child pretty quickly but kept the other one long enough to where it sold for considerably more than I paid for it.

 

[paracordkydexcummins]

I want one of the cms instead of the khar pm45 I looked at it just seems classier

 

[orionengnr]

I have owned a number of 1911s. At least twelve have been 3"ers.
I still have a Kimber Ultra Carry II (bought used) and my wife has an Ultra CDP (bought new).
Mine is probably 8-9 years old, and hers is probably 5 years old.
Both work perfectly, and have since we bought them.

Okay, to be fair, I bought mine used, and had Chuck Rogers install the stainless feed ramp insert, because the prior owner had sanded through the anodizing on the feed ramp. So the aluminum feed ramp was chewed up...but it worked, even as it was.

I had another stainless Ultra Carry II and an early Ultra CDP (pre-Series II), both bought used, and both of them worked perfectly too. Wish I'd kept them, but you can't own them all...at least not all at the same time.

So, my suggestion is, find one local, try it first and if it works well, buy it. (Note that I did not take my own advice, but it worked out for me.)

 

[orionengnr]

I have owned a number of 1911s. At least twelve have been 3"ers.
I will only speak to the Kimbers here:
I still have a Kimber Ultra Carry II (bought used) and my wife has an Ultra CDP (bought new).
Mine is probably 8-9 years old, and hers is probably 5 years old.
Both work perfectly, and have since we bought them.

Okay, to be fair, I bought mine used, and had Chuck Rogers install the stainless feed ramp insert, because the prior owner had sanded through the anodizing on the feed ramp. So the aluminum feed ramp was chewed up...but it worked, even as it was.

I also have owned another stainless Ultra Carry II and an early Ultra CDP (pre-Series II), both bought used, and both of them worked perfectly too. Wish I'd kept them, but you can't own them all...at least not all at the same time.

So, my suggestion is, find one local, try it first and if it works well, buy it. (Note that I did not take my own advice, but it worked out for me.)

 

[dakota1911]

Generally the little guys are going to give you more problems, require higher maintenance, be snottier about ammo, and require more range time to shoot well than a larger, say 4.25 or 5 inch 1911. I would go beyond 1911s and say that comparing my Glock 36 to a Glock 21. My first one was a Detonics I bought in 1984 as a backup to the Colt Gov. I carried then. I have had a bunch of others over the years including SAs Kimbers, RIAs, Paras, and Colts. The best one I found was a Colt Defender. I bought one in 2002 and carried it for awhile. I carry a Commander now mainly for the sight radius as I live in a more rual environment. The last "bad thing" I had to shoot was a rabid skunk at 45 yards.

Anyway I guess some pictures.

My Detonics which has the shortest grip of any 1911 variant I have shot. Even Officers mags stick out the bottom a bit on this and my little finger has no place to go when I hold it.



A couple cheap RIAs. I have kept the one on top in my shooty collection to loan to good friends and relatives who want to try one of these little guys. A friend shot my Defender once and immediately dropped it. There was a pad on the shooting bench. It bounced twice and stopped. One more bounce and it would have gone on the ground (cement).



The one I probably had the most problems getting to run 100%. Never carried it and keep it in my shooty collection as the only example of Para's LDA trigger I have left.



Lastly my Defender and under that a Glock 36 and under that an AMT 45 Backup which is a DAO hammer fired pistol which launches .45ACP and has 5 in the mag.



Now a friend of mine has one of the little S&W 1911s and has had great luck with it. I have shot it a little bit and it seems nice. Have not shot a small DW but have a couple larger DW 1911s and would guess it would be good.

Let us know what you get and post some pictures.