I hope you forgive us know-littles for posting our opinions here re: safes...we're not all as "expert" as you are but are trying to help anyway.
I don't mind people expressing their opinions. However, people buy safes to protect what is important to them. If somebody bases a decision on a bad opinion, they stand to loose what they sought to protect.
Just like a surgeon would probably rebut my incorrect opinions on heart bypass methods, I will do the same on incorrect opinions regarding safes. I wouldn't be mad at the surgeon for pointing out my errors, because he's the surgeon, and he knows better than I.
Your tone suggests you are being condescending. Don't need that.
I know I sometimes come off that way in typed words, but I'm really not. I just don't like all of the false information floating around out there. I'm a very likable person, and only offering good information to assist those in need.
If you'll read many of my previous posts, both on here and other forums, I think you will see that. I'm often giving away more information than I am soliciting business. I sell plenty of safes locally, and don't depend on the gun forums for my livelihood.
Thanks, but I know plenty about this subject and I am just trying to help the original poster out.
If you don't mind me asking, what are your qualifications?
I've been in the safe business for 15 years. I'm a licensed and insured locksmith specializing in safes and vaults. I sell, move, install, repair, and open everything from $80 document safes all the way up to $100,000 bank vaults. I'm a member of SAVTA, and am the only safe company in one of the larger Missouri counties.
they're found in the high-end ($$$$) safes only, like my Liberty Presidential for example (albeit my LARGE, not small safe), which would qualify as a "high-end" safe I believe, with your permission to say so. Since you're an "expert," you know this model very well so I need not describe it further.
I'm very familiar with it. I do all of the delivery work for the local Liberty dealer because I have all the equipment they can't afford to buy.
I wouldn't go as far as calling it a high end safe. It only carries a RSC rating. The safe has a 3/16" body and 1/4" door. For the money, there are much more secure safes available. The lightest gun safe made by Graffunder has a 1/2" door and 1/4" body with a composite insulated construction.
Not that Liberty builds a bad product, but they do market their safes to be something that they aren't. This type of marketing is what leads to a lot of the bad information floating around out there.
But someone here was saying that that he could get into ANY safe with a power saw, special blade, enough time, etc. Couldn't we all.
Yes, but in much less time than you might imagine. Gun safes are only tested against a hammer and screwdriver to achieve their 5 minute RSC rating.
Most safes found at Walmart and Office depot can be opened with that same hammer and screwdriver in less than 30 seconds.
Consequently, I was addressing THAT issue, that if one of these "any safes" -- in particular a high-end safe -- was built-in to something (or had walls around the three sides) so it could only be attacked FROM THE FRONT, usually any safe's strongest side, it would FOR SURE make a big difference and take the guy more time to break open. That's all we can ask for. If he's there too long trying to break in, he could be caught and/or shot. That's the best we could ask for.
High end safes are usually rated on all 6 sides, making this type of attack very difficult.
On most normal gun safes, what you suggest is good advice, as the door is certainly stronger than the sides, back, bottom, or top. A safe only buys time, but again, many of these safes buy you much less time than you've been told.
Even the cheaper safes we are talking about here in this thread -- small gun safes -- with no hardened plate or embedded ball bearings would still most likely have a thicker steel in the door (front) so again, making access to it ONLY from the front WOULD be of benefit.
The cheaper safes you are speaking of use an outer steel shell thin enough to be cut with a can opener. I'm not making a joke, you can really cut through the thin steel with a can opener.
The interiors of these safes are often plastic, offering no further resistance one the outer steel is breached. The locks are very simple, and not protected by any additional measures.
A brute force attack on the lock will usually last less than 30 seconds. A general brute force attack on the door or body itself will usually last less than a few minutes.
These types of safes are fireproof boxes with privacy locks. They are not designed to prevent burglary of any type, but rather to protect paperwork from fire. Even their owners manuals go as far to list items that shouldn't be stored in them. Firearms are one of the items listed.
Anything that slows the thief down even a few minutes is of benefit and said thief knows that is not in his best interest.
Yes, it is. However, many people think their $100 safe is buying them 30 minutes of protection, when it's really only offering 30 seconds of protection.
If consumers had more factual knowledge prior to making their purchase, they would probably make more educated decisions. I think this would still hold true even if it resulted in a more expensive, but better designed, safe.
I have been to all my local safe stores...they are WAY too expensive...
I suppose that is relative. I have customers that spend upwards of $10,000 for custom safes built into their closets. We also are installing more vault doors into new homes than ever. Most people wanting to truly protect what they have don't have a problem paying for that security.
If you're going to spend your money on something that's only going to slow somebody down for a minute, you might as well put it in a shoe box and hide it.
Maybe your store isn't as expensive, but you're not anywhere near where I live, are you. Or maybe even near the original poster, either. So it doesn't mater what you sell them for, does it [a rhetorical question].
This depends as well. I have pretty good web pricing, and can ship safes anywhere in the country. I also usually give fellow forum members additional discounts.
Of course I'm here to share my knowledge and learn from others. I'm not on these forums to sell safes.
You could ship them of course, but no thanks, unless absolutely necessary I prefer NOT to pay the huge shipping charges for something very heavy long-distance...I prefer to buy such heavy objects locally
How do you suppose the safes got to your local store? The shipping is just factored into the price.
But even an $80 safe is better than nothing, your skills at getting into it notwithstanding. Please don't put down such purchase choices some of us may make, that we should get something better. Sure, we would, if money were no object...unless you're buying.
I've never put down the purchase amount. In fact, I gave the original poster three other types of safes to consider. Two of those three are available by the same manufacturer at the same office supply store.
I said the type of safe being considered is the wrong type of safe to use. It is the wrong safe to use. I suggested he contact a safe professional, as they can tell you these types of things. Walmart and Office Max can't, and in many cases, you can buy a better product at the same price from one of us. Like you mentioned, we also deal in used safes, which can result in big savings.
Besides, how many street-punks/gansters are like you, an "expert,"
Any of them with internet access, or that have been locked up. Do a google search. You'd be amazed at what's floating around out there.
Although there are many smash and grab burglaries, there are also plenty that stick around for a few minutes. I see burglarized safes on a fairly regular basis. I get calls from the detectives when a safe has gone missing so I can keep my eyes and ears open.
I have a safe sitting in my shop that came from a church. They were using it to store money, and the thief beat a hole right into the back of the safe. It was one of those safes from an office supply store. I can post photos if you'd be interested. The police thought they were in and out in less than 15 minutes, which included tearing through a wall to avoid an alarmed door.
The reality is, hardly ever.
You may have a really low crime rate in your area, but I can assure you it's quite common in other parts of the country.
Also, if the risk is so low in the first place, why even invest in a safe at all? You could use the money you saved to build your collection. Afterall, what are the odds?
I believe another poster posted photos of a burglarized gun safe recently. The burglary happened near him, and the safe owner lost everything inside.
So even a cheap but strong safe
You can have one or another, but not both.
is a very good investment AND a decent effort to secure one's guns. Getting it at one of the "office stores" named above -- or even at WalMart -- is just fine.
It's not fine if the safe you bought to protect your collection rusts them.
It's not fine if you're storing a valuable collection in something that looks secure but isn't.
It's not fine if you live in an area that has safe storage requirements, and the safe doesn't meet those requirements.
So please, give us ignorant poor folks a break.
There's nothing wrong with ignorance. Safes aren't something many people know much about. That's why I'm posting, to eliminate the ignorance.
There is a reason that banks, jewelers, and many others come to guys like me for their safes, and not the office supply store or big box outlet.
I am confused though. Here you claim to be one of the "ignorant poor folks" but above you said that you know "plenty about the subject." Which one is it?
