A Theory About Light Loads....

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Dave McCracken

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There's been talk about a Golden Age of Shotgunning, back over a century ago. Then, shotgunners could shoot winged stuff from Passenger Pigeons to Whooping Cranes to their heart's delight. A million ducks came off the Chesapeake each year and were shipped to New York restaurants at $6 per pair.

Maybe it was Golden, but they had extreme poverty in many cases and half the population was dead by 40.

But, a case can be made that the The Golden Age of Shotgun Ammo is now.

Back when I started caring about such things in the late 50s, roll crimps and cardboard cases were the rule on shotgun fodder. Wads were fiber, cork and cardboard, and the shot kinda skidded along the bore when fired. And that shot was oft just dropped and chilled pure lead, soft enough to deform if looked at.

Field loads of the day were heavy, to ensure that they'd function in cold weather in the overoiled and undercleaned autos of the time. There was probably also some mental advantage to them, kind of a "If it hurts this much back here it must be a killer load at the other end" mindset.

Pop discovered that a trap load oft worked better than his old standby, the Western Long Range load of 1 1/4 oz of 7 1/2s or 6s for pheasant and also doubled on quail nicely. Looking back, I'd venture to say hard shot was the difference. Antimony was more expensive then than now and most shot was as innocent of it as a baby of sin.

And them about the time I hit high school, Winchester and Olin pioneered the one piece plastic wad. The Heavens opened up, the choirs sang Hosannahs, the sun beamed brightly and we found that 1 1/8 oz loads in field loads beat the old 1 1/4 oz ammo and the trap loads were better yet.

Of course, the one piece wad helped enormously because the shot was shielded and protected in its fast trip up the bore, The other major cause of deformation was setback at ignition, where the weight of the top layers of shot contributed to the weight obvious under acceleration to the bottom layers. Under multiple G force acceleration at launch, this squashed pellets so they didn't fly as well as the rest and were lost to the pattern.

Anyways, I've been delighted in the performance of my 7/8 oz handloads this last couple years. Even at 35 yards plus,they grind targets to a fine powder if I hold up my end of things.

The International trap folks use 24 gram loads, a hair under 7/8 oz. Those folks routinely make shots at that exacting and rapid game that are scarce to be believed by us mere mortals.

I'm delighted with the results. But, it kept bothering me that less is more. I think I've got it figured out.

The core of any shot pattern has lots of pellets in it. If we compare the inner 24" of two patterns, using all the same stuff except one load has 1 1/8 oz and the other 7/8 oz of identical shot, propelled at the same speed, we'd probably find that part of the pattern was just as dense with holes regardless of whether the 1 1/8 or 7/8 oz loads was used.

With protection from the bore equal in both loads, setback deformation would leave the bottom pellets in the heavier load squeezed flatter so they'd be out of the pattern PDQ.Without that squeezing, there's as many pellets in the TARGET with the lighter load, and that's where it counts.

Questions, Comments?
 
An interesting observation, Dave... and one that seems to make sense. I'd have to spend a bunch of time at a pattern board to know for sure, but it's a decent working hypothesis.

A month or so ago, I was at a friend's house and digging through his collection of shotgun magazines and catalogs. One which peaked my interest was a Ballistic Products catalog. In it, they had a bunch of info about different reloading components and how you might use them for different clay target presentations.

One of the things I found most interesting was that they were recommending light loads (7/8 oz) of "heavy" shot (#7.5) moving at high velocities as the ideal load for long shots. Most of what I've played with for lighter loads has been at lower velocities... but it might be interesting to pump them up a bit and see how they work.

IIRC, they were also advocates of very small shot (#9 or even #10) used with spreader wads for close-in targets. I realize that they are selling their own products with this ad copy, but it was interesting nonetheless.

BTW. in working with very light loads, I've encountered problems with reduced missing targets... but I think it's entirely possible that it may be due to the pattern being extra tight, as opposed to patchy. In my informal testing, it seems that you should use less choke (and sometimes CONSIDERABLY less choke) than you would with a heavier load.
 
BP toots their own horn, truly, but they seem an ethical company. I may pick up some of their hard shot in 7.5 and see just how tight I can get 7/8 oz from the 38 POC of the TB's barrel.

My current load runs about 1275, has 8.5 shot, and erases trap targets from the sky. I've gone as light as IC this time of year and still had plenty of moxie, albeit chippier hits.I like tighter than Modified for trap,though, just one personal foible.

Slow loads of any shot pattern a bit tighter. I could drop down one bushing on my pet load, but it shoots TOO tight. With Hogdgon printing pressures of 8K PSI for my pet, I can adjust it up as wanted and still not tempt fate.

Spreader wads are more trouble than their worth. I played with some homemade ones for a while, but they were just too much trouble for a few inches of spread at skeet. 7/8 oz of 9s at 1300 FPS did better.
 
I have to agree, light loads are where it is at. I shoot 7/8 ounce in 12 gauge, and 3/4 ounce in 20 gauge for clay targets, nearly always #8 shot and always somewhere around 1200 FPS for both. I run them just fast enough to respond to choke, any slower and they get wicked center densities and not much peripheral pattern. Pheasants get one ounce in 20 gauge, and 1 1/4 ounce in 12 on bad weather days with high winds, always #5 shot with the 20's running a pedestian 1150-1200 and the 12's smokin' fast at 1500 or so.

If you notice, the only lead load I shoot that isn't a total powder puff 'nancy' load is a bad weather/high wind pheasant load. I use that load when shots will be 35-60 yards, and in that case it works well. With steel shot I also use every bit of speed money can buy, but steel is a totally different animal.

Light loads are ESPECIALLY important on the target field. Light loads let you shoot longer without recoil fatigue, and more practice means better scores. There is NO reason at all to beat the snot out of yourself with 1 1/8th ounce 3 dram or heavier loads, 1 ounce 2 3/4 dram loads will do everything just as well with a third less recoil. "Manly" men might disagree, but just tell them to bring some money to the range to pay for their education. Trap shooters are the most difficult to convince, but they too will come around sooner or later.

Shoot light, shoot LOTS.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I agree with the above posters.

Though used the 2 3/4 dr 1 1/8 oz quite a bit when I competed, I was using a semi in 12 ga for that event, years ago.

I did experiment [ hence the above caution]. I read about how it was a "matter of bore not choke". How the British used a 11/16 oz loading and considered the 1 1/8 oz "heavy" and the 1 1/4 oz as "magnum".

I customized some MEC bushings, one was indeed threw 11/16 oz of shot. Yes I know 7/8 oz is close, but I was trying to duplicate the various works I had read. Using the hardest shot in #8 , # 7.5 and #6 and chrono running 1200 - 1250 - I had a unique hard hitting load. #6 out of 12 bore is an anomaly , like the 28 ga it tends to " shoot better than it is supposed to",

My Goal was short shot strings. I acheived it.
I have another dream I worked on and have not...that one is still one I dream of, a few know about it...not for discussion , please. :)

I also went to a 3/4 oz and 5/8 oz loading in the 20 ga. I found the most phenominal load for the 28 ga, 5/8 oz of # 6 will kill a duck DRT. I was using a fixed choked Citori Skeet gun when I did this. #7.5 was the first bbl, #6 for the second...35 steps and "plop". 3 greenheads in row witnessed this loading the first test alone. #6 running 1250 . Then non - toxic reg's messed up my new fun duck load.

I used Winchester componets exclusively back then. I have no idea where that old ledger ended up. The loads were a combination of playing, gut instinct, reading old works and a lot of luck. Probably best I can't post them anyway.

At some point I will get back into reloading. I still want my "other" loading someday tho'. ;)
 
H, besides the lack of fatigue there's some simple economics at work here. A 25 lb bag of shot gives 350 loads at 1 1/8 oz, 400 at 1 oz and 450 at 7/8 oz. The light loads need less powder to reach proper velocity too, so there's some savings there.

I shot badly at 5 stand yesterday. One shot I had little trouble with, though, was a teal type vertical at max range, call it 45-50 yards. I used an IC choke and those 8.5s.

BB, you're absolutely right.

sm, both the 28 and the 16 do oneheckuvajob. The old "Square load" concept may have something to it.

For those coming in late, the Square Load is one where the shot charge is about the same height as bore diameter. IMO, there's more to the idea of a short shot column with more of the shot arriving at the same time.Square Loads would qualify.

I believe the light loads work best with hard shot. Soft and unround shot means more flyers, less pattern density.
 
Square Load

Yes , that is what I was going for. Relationship to square load to short shot strings.

For folks just getting into shotguns and loads the British and other Europeans frowned on we Americans. They considered for one the SxS and then later the O/U as "Proper". Much effort into gun fit, and loads that had short strings. Americans had "heavy" loadings being fired out of "uncouth" shotguns.

It matters not how many pellets are "in the air" if they do not go where looked, blow patterns, poor density and have l-on-g shot strings. A stationary pattern board is a useful tool, being stationary this only reveals Part of the effectiveness. MOVING targets ...one can drive a truck through all them pellets in a long shot string. Tighten that string up ( short) even with less pellets and the load hits HARD.

NO offense, but that is why many of us are negative about Huge payloads in shells the size of roman candles. Bigger is not always better. Less is more is a proven in many of life's lessons, applicable to shotgun loads.

I did have some loads buffered. I stole the Grex from Win loads. I made my own. I also had some copperplated and nickel plated shot as well.

I sometimes think the screw in choke hurt folks in learning to shoot. I mean it.

We didn't have screw in chokes back then. I didn't have the powders and many components we have today in my testing, and research.

I did get the performance of Imp Modified out of a Skeet gun. I can still get the Cyl performance out of a gun or choke marked Full.

Matters not what a bbl or choke is marked, the pattern board defines what THAT load throws at said distance and with that bbl.

I recently proved this to owner of a new 870 Express with the factory MOD choke. He was getting all wrapped around the axel about buying stuff for this gun.

I had some old loads of mine, and I used some newer loads. I threw a pattern that figured out to be Cyl bore , I threw another that figured out to be Extra full. This out of a choke marked MOD.

This same principle applies to HD loads.

I cannot find square shaped shot anymore " spreader loads". There is a way to cheat though. You want to shoot close quail using a full choke gun?

Take about 5# of chilled shot, double bag it in the factory shot bags. Run over it with your tire. I actually used one of those heavy metal rollers to even up fresh lain sod. 5 # of shot in a 25 # bag lays flat. ;)

Using that Full choke gun on quail this spreader load is in chamber, next shell is regular chilled shot, the 3rd is a target load. Stacking. Now you why some folks carried a hodgepogde of different colored hulls. Exlpains why that old fart you hunted with took quail with a old full choked gun. Explains why he didn't care for newfangled screw in chokes either. :D

I know one "old fart" on this board *ahem* that had a 12 ga spreader load in a 11/16 oz. He also had one in 3/4 oz. He used a full choked 870 on a quail hunt. He was making all his hits. The dogs were giving the other shooters "that look" He was sent to the truck to retieve another gun. He was "made " to shoot a H&R Topper in 12 ga. Sent back again. :p
Relegated to a Single Shot .410....well it wasn't his fault the other folks couldn't shoot.

There appears to be a correlation to quail wanting to flush when a member of the party with his pricey shotgun and screw in chokes...decides to change chokes - yet again.
I think a relationships exists when a fella hasn't told wifey about the Credit card bill and not being able to hit with said gun he keeps at a friends house too.
:p
 
There used to be spreader shot that was flattened like that,sm. Good 15 yard stuff.

OTOH, I muse sometimes on the turkey fanatics and their choices of very heavy loads and overly contricted chokes. I've one here that's 65 POC, and it shoots little better than a standard Full, if any. I may bore it out to 25 POC and use it for handicap trap and turkey too.
 
IIRC the "Card Shooters" were having real good luck going totally against what one would think.

IIRC the first thing was to NOT lengthen the forcing cone. Using a 1oz load of #9 hard shot from a Extra Full fixed choked bbl . It has been awhile, seems to me the bbl was swaged a bit. I think even one guy was using a 34" bbl with a payload of just under 7/8oz using # 8.5 hard shot.

Like I said it has been awhile, bascially everything that at the time that made sense about patterns and loads and everyone was doing...these guys were 180*. :scrutiny:
--
Never Turkey hunted, I have patterned for Turkey hunters tho'. Mod and Imp mod using The "Super Pigeon" load with pellets removed and #5 or #6 hard shot works well. Hey I like simple...it works...Seriously. :cool:

I never paid much attention to bbl marking anyway...I knew this was a good load, subsituted the pellets and used playing cards over the turkey pattern head so I could re-use the whole turkey pattern over again.

" You mean I can buy a box of 25 "Pigeon" loads for same price or close to that of a 5 pk of tricked out Turkey loads that hurt to shoot and all I have to do is rob the pellets and sub with the hard #5 or #6"

Yep. :D

Depended on the fella's bbl on which shot size. Less recoil too. The #7.5 shot removed was used for other loadings. Like I said , why make it difficult - when simple works. :p

Try it and test for yourself.
 
I've done little card or turkey shoots since boyhood. Back then everyone used a standard shotgun with full choke. Winchester 12 and 37s were quite popular.

I know the equipment has specialized since then.

Back when I set Frankenstein up for turkey hunting, I patterned loads from the barnburner 1 3/4 oz stuff down to the Remington Long Range 1 1/4 oz, vintage 1985. That last came in second in number of hits.

The more I know about shotguns, the more I know I know little about the vagaries of a given barrel with a given load.

And touching on something you said earlier,IMO, most folks would be at least as well off with a fixed choke and a variety of well tested loads.
 
Remember - I am greenhorn by comparison to you guys ... my shottie use is so intermittent. Well - last trap shoot tho last week ..... the two boxes of ammo I grabbed when leaving home - were not my homeloads (1 oz) but were factory Rem 7/8oz .. those high velocity thingies.

Funny ... but I usually shoot badly on the second 25 birds at 23 yards .... and yet ... this load was gettin me hitting stuff way better than usual .. and is making me realize more and more that actual shot weight, per se .... sure as heck ain't everything!

If it weren't for the probs of getting good closure with my wad/hull combination ... I'd really consider reloading with just 7/8. I dare not change cos I have a load of wads in stock.... which I must use.
 
The Claybuster clone of the WAA12SL, Chris, works well with 7/8 oz of hard shot. I hear the new 1 oz Windjammer wads do too, but I've no direct experience.

I noted while shooting trap today that I'm smoking lots of targets. I hit them at about 35 yards, so my choke and load means the pattern is still pretty dense out there, mayhap too dense. Next time I'll use a Mod tube and see how it goes.

Shooting badly on the second round probably means a lack of good conditioning. Some dry mounts at home on non shooting days and BA/UU/R will fix that.
 
Chris

What Dave said sounds good.

I'm the antiquated one around here since I "retired" from actually reloading. All "my time" I stuck with the Win factory wads...and with the inventory I had...I never tried the new wads coming out. I probably don't know half of what is new today. When I piddle today with reloading it is to get a MEC adjusted, teach how to use or somesuch.

You are using hard shot are you not Chris?

Did you ever pattern that gun and set of chokes from 21 on out to 40 yds?

The black 7/8 oz hulled Rem that was " I think" a high velocity load for dove and quail I tried in some guns did not perform well. The Fed Int'l trap load ( 24 grams) was sweeeet! The guns I palying with like them.

I just show up with ear plugs and glasses...I wing it from there. I've gotten real simple about things. I borrow guns...dig around in my truck for ammo, find ammo. I didn't know I had ( Active shotshells anyone?) ...buy the cheapest stuff at the gas station ...I never knew Taiwain made ammo... Maybe it was Russian...whatever, I go have fun...somtimes I hit something. I really have not been serious in quite awhile...I do have a ball...

I guess I had to be serious to some degree in competiting...I became too serious and to back off some. I go out and play and go against the stuff I teach folks just to see what happens, and to re-affirm when I do teach and advise.

On the serious shotgun stuff I dont' play , I take it serious I may experiment, do some T&E, with a student it is all business.

Stinky cheap ammo one cannot read the box, out of Mod tubed 1300 and goofing off , I still ran a 24/25. go figure. I was lucky.


ClayBumInc That'd be me..:p
 
ClayBumInc here too Steve!:D

My shot? ... well I use the ''West Coast'' ... ''Magnum'' shot which does I believe have a useful antimony level and so reasonably hard. I'm ashamed to say I have yet to do a full pattern test .... crazy really cos have put some large paper sheets aside - just for that.

WTW-12's are my Windjammers right now - blue ones .... and they do well with my 1oz over 19 grns Solo 1000. I think a reduced shot load would give a lousy closure ..... and as I have about 2,000 still in stock .. must use em up!:p Once I get thru those then I will investigate my options.
 
Solo ? Wasn't that the guy on that space ship show....Star Trek? They have a powder named after him? You're kidding?
I guess it is hard to find Win 452AA in your area - Huh? :D

I'm a relic at 49... to bad it don't pay anything to be one. :p

Okay you are using hard shot - that is good. So what is 19.0 gr do as far as "suggested" velocity / fps. / pressures?

Where I am going is if you went to say 18.5 gr, 18.7 and then say 19.3 IF SAFE ...and checked these those on a pattern board if the density would change. My gut is the 18.5 would run ~1160 vel / maybe 7800 psi ...and the pattern would tighten and recoil be less perceived.

Weird deal is IF SAFE, sometimes if say the 19.3, bump it up, no change or less perceived recoil and better density. close and far. SWAG ~ 1220 - 1250...8500psi?

Only absolute about shotguns - ain't one.

Yes they let me play with guns, and powder...I have used Hunches...I did blow some bbls along the way ...still gonna have MY dream loading some day... done invested in blowing up 4 or 5 bbls trying...:p
 
Hey - relic Jr ... Relic Sr here!! :p

Nah .... that was Starwars Steve ... remember ... the absurdly young lookin Harrison Ford!!

The 19 grains is a tad over recommended on the Windjammer load data . I started at about 18.7 IIRC and found the round a tad ''whimpy'' ... there .. ain't that scientific!? :D

Thing is ...... not only have I not gotten around to patterning but - never chrono'd as yet. Thing is - never tried to crono for a shottie ..... how far away can chrono be before it gets shattered??!:p

My best guess is - I am running approx 1250 ... seems pretty lively but far from over cooked .. IMO!
 
At some point in time, please pattern, chrono, and if the load is a tad hot, serioulsy do a comparison on the "suggested" loading that felt whimpy . Sometimes what "feels" whimpy or Whoa Nellie...are not hitting the targets the way they feel.

I know squat about metallic and I'm giving ballistic suggestions...never said I was smart did I?

Oh - though I have never personally shot a chrono... I have seen chrono's hit from various ranges by different platforms. A .22lr does some damage, a 12 ga ain't good...a .50 BMG ...DRT and over there....and over there...:p
 
Chris, shoot me an email when you start getting low on wads. I have 25K or so, 6 or 7 varieties, and would be MORE than happy to send you a grab bag. In 12 gauge I have WAA12, WAA12SL, Duster clones of both previous, SP10 Remingtons and a couple others. If you shoot 20 gauge add another 40K wads of differing make and model, a true English 'arseload' LOL.

If I send you a grab bag to test then possibly you can find what you need and inform the rest of us on what happened in your guns.

Your literary skills and notes from past posts prove you are more than capable of testing the loads. I know what happens in my shotguns but that is only a dozen or so, if everyone tested the comprehensiveness of the data would be mindboggling.
 
HSMITH-
I wondered when you going to pipe in. Clones?
Sheesh I are a relic. There was talk about Claybuster or something.

Gimmee a break, I got "high tech and with it"...I bought a whole pallet of WAA12SL when they came out.

Dang Whippersnappers( H) ...some are older whippersnappers (Chris) - go figure.

No I agree...Chris is sharper than I , he will be fine. When you guys get a good load and I get out retirement...I may holler. I still have Superlight powder and wads to use up tho'...

Ask HSMITH he knows...he don't know it yet but someday I'm going to bug him on data...he offered, I haven't taken him up on it yet...
 
I normally shoot the 24 gram load at about 1270-1300 and they break targets hard if you center them. I agree there is no problem with "less" shot in the core of the pattern, whether it's 32, 28 or 24 gram loads.

IMHO the effective pattern size is reduced, however, so those 2 or 3 piece hits with 1 1/8 might not be broken with the 7/8, depending on the yardage, where the bird was hit, etc. A 7/8 load can not fill a 30" circle like a 1 1/8 load can.

Regardless, it was a good move for the International sports.
I'd like to see more sports go to it for the benefits of less recoil, cost, lead on the ground and it will make the sports a bit more challenging, depending on the game. Overall, no downside that I can see.

Even FITASC, which allowed 1 1/4, is going to 1 ounce next year.
 
45auto

Good Post!

Re: 24 gram load -

Are you using the Fed load?
Have you used the Fiocchi loading?

I have used the Federal and a Beretta load. One thing I noticed right off was my shooting improved - big time. Almost like a " aim small - miss small" deal. My focus and concentration was better.

I noticed even going back to a heavier 1oz load , then the 1 1/8 oz load for something else later in the day....I hit the targets more centered.

I guess if one has a payload , one can get complacent. One thing a .410 will do...humble one by showing complacency in form, focus and follow thru...
 
SM,

I reload all my shells. I don't know if my shotgun would function with new shells. :D

The last time I "walked out" with a case of new shells, they were in the 500 count( 20 box) carton- HA!!

I now use Clays powder with a STS hull, 1 ounce Rem wad, and winchester primer. But, I like AA hulls also and their 1 ounce wad. Hodgen has lot's of good loads with all sorts of combinations using Clays.

If I recall the Fiocchi load was quite "nice". "Nice" means they didn't kick much and I must have been hitting the targets that day. ;)
I don't think I have ever shot a Federal 24 gram to be honest. Their paper hulls are great...if I were rich and didn't reload...

You make a good point. If you hit well with the 24 gram, it sharpens you up.
My problem is I shoot them so much, that when I do shoot 1 1/8 ( even 1 ounce) in the same day, they " kick the ####" out of me.

Whoever thought up the 410 must have been thinking "handgun". Tough and fun gun to shoot.
 
Back in the day before I "retired' from reloading...
If I had new shell the bolt/ action would close and wouldn't let me load it . [tug, pull grovel, beg, grumble and cuss] :D

Yeah I liked them 500 rd cartons as well.

Fiochhi really uses some great components and not just in shotshells either. Shotshells are hard hitting, great patterns, and target loads are soft recoiling...

Oh yes...I have always liked the paper hull target loads. Win, Peters and Federal. If I were rich...yep I agree. I even reloaded the paper at one time.

Brister wrote Full choke is a demanding mistress; improved cylinder a forgiving friend

Similar can be said for using light loads that are designed with good components being a friend and heavy loads with inferior components being one's worst enemy.
 
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